This could quickly degenerate into post-it notegate.

This could quickly degenerate into post-it notegate.

.
It shouldn't have to. Its better that Pakistan fights with itself than fights with its neighbours.

Pakistan is a failed state - the military will never let the power to a democratic institution - the military echelons have a lot to loose financially.

Pakistan is a doomed state - unless the Army and the ISI are made impotent - this will never happen.

So, the best way forward is to further partition this country - for the sake of regional stability, its civil populace, and better its changes to educate its young generation.

The place to oust an administration enjoying a two-thirds majority is at an election, and the people to do so are voters, not judges, generals or intelligence chiefs.

Unless of course NATO countries don't like the incumbent administration either....

Interesting but utterly pointless the army runs all the things the important things in Pakistan anyway.

But surely if the Army was so confident about its control of the courts then why is it preparing to launch old fashion bog standard military coup d'état by placing loyal commanders in control of key military forces.

Uggh. A military coup in Pakistan - just what we need to add to the war without end in Afghanistan, a FundaMentalist regime in Iran heading for a war with the west over a nuclear programme and the sectarian war in Iraq and now in Syria.
Happy 2012...

True that the civilian government in Pakistan is inept and corrupt (as in any third world country). However, Pakistan needs to establish the supremacy of the constitution once for all. The prime minister should sack the head of the army, General Kayani, and the head of ISI, General Pasha. This Trumanesque action would obviously trigger a coup, but the generals do not have the stomach for another coup in light of the fact that only four years ago General Musharraf was overthrown by popular uprising. If there is a coup, Pakistan can discard pretensions for constitutional democracy and end playing silly games of tussle between the army and elected governments that have been going on for over 60 years.

India on the other hand is a perfect country with no 3G or land scams

India does not have more poor than Africa, India does not have more malnourished kids than subsaharan Africa

The Indian parliament does not have 34% of its members facing murder or organised crime allegations

Nor has India passed laws which made the patriot act in America look tame

It always amazes me when Indians feel the need to spread thier hate on any story mentioning Pakistan .

Pakistan Army General musheraff actually gave the media and challenged extremist more than th civilians
He actually did more for peace with India than any of his predecessors

But of course that's not the narrative Indians are taught .

Let's pretend India never back tracked on a generous peace deal musheraff offered via back channel diplomacy
Lets pretend india is not the worlds largest importer

Pakistan is such a doomed state it has less debt than India or uk and has lower poverty levels and higher per capita exports . India 40% of it is under a Maoist insurgency

I'm glad you care so much about Pakistani youths . Perhaps you should look more at th 100 Kashmiri youths killed last summer. Or 400 million Dalits are treated 3rd class

Funny how the guardian sees a conspiracy in developing countries .

Bombs go off in Syria must be Assad

Terror plot disrupted by FBI must be al Qaeda couldn't possibly be a CIA entrapment programme

Zardari is corrupt and very unpopular . If the guardian wants to continue protecting Pakistani fudeals parties that's up to them

The guardian has been misled by fake Pakistani democrats who think democracy means getting votes give you license to kill . If the PM ignore the supreme court he will be sacked .
The supreme court judge actually has a reputation as being anti military . But the reporters which contributed to this article all have vested interest

Sigh. Oh god, here we go again...

It says it all that both India and Pakistan became independent in 1947, and whilst secular India is zooming in on being a powerful economic and world power, the religious state of Pakistan is a medieval backward state full of prejudice murder and idiotic mullahs.
Religion is what Pakistan wants to get shot of if it wants civilisation and progress.

It comes as no surprise. The military could well stage a coup within days. What will the Americans do then poor things.

What in the name of God have India's domestic problems got to do with Pakistan's being a basket case? If the UK is experiencing stagnation, does that cancel out Ireland's problems? Do economic troubles facing Ethiopia nullify the mess in Somalia? If Syria is in a state of civil war, does that mean that we shouldn't pay attention to any turbulence in Israel?

The army has staged four coups in the past, but this time, its instrument is a blatantly partisan supreme court, which is attempting to force an elected government to resign.

Well, the Supreme Court has been harrowing the Government for legitimate concerns. The court has ordered the Govt. numerous times to open the "Swiss Cases" (cases linking money laundered by President Zardari from Pakistan to Switzerland) and has given plenty other orders to the Govt. over the past 2 years but the Govt. treats the Supreme Court like sh*t. The Supreme Court has run out of patience too. Such blatant disregard and disrespect towards the Supreme Court was always going to create a huge schism between the two institutions. And if the Court forces the inept Prime Minister to step down then it is entitled to it. Just because the Army now wants the same thing doesn't mean the Court is subservient to it. The Army has its own grievances against the Govt. but so does the Supreme Court.

Nice rant. The Indians here on The Guardian always come on with this agenda of cursing Pakistan no matter what the article says. They surely need to be reminded of their own problems too from time to time, because they tend to hide it away from the media.

After contempt proceeding of Supreme Court, it is presumed that now government camp will adopt one of three options;

1. Government camp will try to withdraw the executive order of restoring the Judges through cabinet decision or by the resolution of parliament.

2. Government camp will seek to precede the action against Army Chief and DG ISI.

3. Government camp will decide to surrender before Supreme Court decisions.

As a constitutional institution, Judiciary is out of government pressure and active in performing the institutional charter of duties.

As a constitutional institution, Establishment is out of government pressure and active in performing the institutional charter of duties.

Whereas, due to misgovernment and misrule, chaos and confusion is increasing day by day therefore, according to the political wisdom;

It is in best interest of government as well as parliamentarians, political system and democracy that the constitutional institutions should be supervised by the consultation as per constitution, legal departments be governed by the suitable laws and autonomous bodies be managed by proper rule of businesses through honest and competent persons. Otherwise, atmosphere for collapse of government is fully ripped and inevitable.

In Liaquat Ali Khan era power centre of politics was at Karachi and power centre of establishment was at Rawalpindi but, in present era power centre of politics is at Lahore, power centre of establishment is still at Rawalpindi and power centre of judiciary is additional and at Islamabad. Therefore, positive or negative role of Lahore, Rawalpindi and Islamabad will be the fate of the nation.

However, instead of artificial arrangements Zardari needs practical and permanent political measures;

1. To politically reconcile with PPP BB bloc and to politically compete with PMLN according to political ethics and manners.

2. To establish proper working relationship with Supreme Court and GHQ, without criticizing, disturbing, interfering and manipulating the institutional charter of duties.

Otherwise to save the government by non-political tactic and depending on regional level power players like MQM and PMLQ is waste of time, because none of these type of players will stand with Zardari at the time of clash with Supreme Court or GHQ and without conflict with Supreme Court or GHQ, change of government is out of question if Zardari have organized and systemized PPP without any internal split and honorable political competition with PMLN.
Anyhow, political chaos may lead the country towards;

a. Any unconstitutional action.

b. Some non-democratic change

c. Early general election.

Nevertheless, if general election may not be held within 90 days then caretaker government will take long course.

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@ GUnit

You are nothing but delusional. India has a free press which on a daily basis reports all the problems that India face.

On the other hand Pakistan has been adjudged as the most dangerous place for journalists in the whole world. More dangerous than Iraq, Afghanistan and Somalia. It is really really dangerous to report that the so called "militants" and "rogue" elements are nothing but irregulars sponsored by the Islamist Pak Army. Google Syed Saleem Shahzad.

www.dawn.com/2011/12/22/pakistan-most-dangerous-country-for-journalists-rsf.html

regards

Having lived in Pakistan as part of an expat posting I was astonished at the violence and deceit with which people respond to differences and diversity. It has led to deeper and wider socio-economic fractures than one sees in most other countries. Apart from China who regards Pakistan in the same way as it does North Korea - all others whether friend or foe privately agree that Pakistan will implode rather than move to explode anything.

Whilst its govt., military and people focus on shady alliances and border skirmishes with Afghanistan and India the rest of the world has moved to making peace with neighbours, healing the past and shifting from aid-dependance to trade-dependance.

None of this seems on Pakistan's radar screen.....even at this late hour. The deeply institutionalised mind-set of a nation & people of such ilk can only be pitied.

right wing trolls really are miserable little creatures aren't they?
it doesn't seem to make much difference what country they're from.

Meltingman: 'It says it all that both India and Pakistan became independent in 1947, and whilst secular India is zooming in on being a powerful economic and world power', whilst the state spends obscene amounts on military posturing and even a space program, the majority of Indians are still struggling to survive: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_India#Poverty_estimates.
'the religious state of Pakistan is a medieval backward state full of prejudice murder and idiotic mullahs', the human rights record of India is no better: http://www.hrw.org/news/2011/06/03/letter-prime-minister-singh-indias-human-rights-commitments.
'Religion is what Pakistan wants to get shot of if it wants civilisation and progress', how can religion be the cause of Pakistan's travails when religious parties enjoy only a tiny fraction of support at the polls and more importantly, the country is not ruled in accordance with the egalitarian teachings of Islam?

It's a lose-lose situation: more corrupt government, or another military dictatorship. And with a weak judiciary that's too cowardly to enforce the law.

My heart goes out to the people who have no control over this mess.

Modi: 'Pakistan is a failed state - the military will never let the power to a democratic institution - the military echelons have a lot to loose financially', the military in Egypt provides another illustration of what happens when too much power and resources are concentrated in military hands.

'Pakistan is a doomed state - unless the Army and the ISI are made impotent - this will never happen', perhaps if the civilian government was not so inept and thoroughly corrupt, these two institutions could then be persuaded to do that which achieves the best result for the nation as a whole. At the moment, they may well feel that toppling the government is the best course of action.

'So, the best way forward is to further partition this country - for the sake of regional stability, its civil populace, and better its changes to educate its young generation', I think it's fair to say that partitioning is not always proceeded by regional harmony, witness the million or so who died when India and Pakistan were partitioned and the subsequent wars that have been fought between these two neighbours. In what was once East Pakistan, tens of thousands were killed and many thousands of women were raped (facts which most people in Pakistan are probably unaware of) for wanting to secede from (West) Pakistan and establish Bangladesh.

Sigh, yes!

Here we have "peace"(?)41 dragging India into the thread, when it hasn't been so much as mentioned in the article.

Sorry, that should be peace141.

GUnit,

They surely need to be reminded of their own problems too from time to time, because they tend to hide it away from the media.

Have you checked out the national daily newspapers published in India? Our (Indian) press could use more honesty and courage, but they have been highlighting India's problems. Thanks to the Internet, it is hard to hide things from us aam janata (ordinary people) any more.

When Bin Laden was found and killed in Abbottabad, Pakistan, I had suggested that Kayani and Company be transferred to Guantanamo. This was not done. And look where we are now.

Husain Haqani's wife Farahnaz writes in the Washington Post: www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/persecution-of-husain-haqqani-sends-a-signal-to-pakistanis/2012/01/05/gIQA2LJmoP_story.html

Key insight-
"But my husband’s case is not simply that of an individual who has been wrongly accused and denied due process. It is part of a broader issue: the systematic elimination or marginalization of every intellectual and leader in Pakistan who has stood up to the institutionalization of a militarized Islamist state. Ever since the military dictator Mohammed Zia ul-Haq created the well-oiled machine of religious extremism, Pakistan’s progressive and liberal voices have faced allegations of treason and corruption."

Pak patriots on CIF are still fighting old enemies: India, US and Israel. The enemy is inside the gates now. The old excuses will not wash as the whole world is watching.

regards

Again? When where the Pakistani Army and the Civiliain govt ever not at each others throats? Seems the only thing both of them hate more then India is each other.

Coup probably won't happen this time. Instead the PPP led government would be pushed into resigning and new elections will be held. The military will prop up Imran Khan as the next alternative and get him to power. The goal would be to use Imran's international stature and image to project a progressive facade, while digging the trenches deeper. So long as Imran reads the military's wishes and lives by its unwritten codes of conduct, he will survive as a puppet. He will be allowed to go out and beg for money for building infrastructure in Pakistan. But he would be denied any access to making critical foreign policy decisions that the military will own. What matters is power. So long as the military gets to keep real power and do what it wishes, they will not resort to coups which are not popular today. Pakistan is already facing financial crisis. Imran would be needed to bring money so that it can be siphoned off by the military for its regional objectives. That is the "Arab Spring" for Pakistan. For a year or more Imran and the military will dance together prosecuting "corrupt" politicians. Then it will be back to square one. Any misfortune will be blamed on Imran while the military will sit comfortably doing its own things.

And the Drones are back.

http://tribune.com.pk/story/319683/us-drone-attack-kills-four-militants-in-pakistan-officials/

After the recent spate of suicide bombings there's mixed feelings in the comments BTL.

You have to feel sorry for them.

Kayani and Company be transferred to Guantanamo

Yes, Parag,

...while Raymond Davis and the two twits who killed some poor bakra while riding to his rescue should be in a Pakistani jail.

Lets consider that a swop done.

You have to feel sorry for them.

Your average Pakistani that is, not the Taliban.

They can eat themselves.

Hey, we agree on something!

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What is happening is a coup by other means.

What, like Libya?

The place to oust an administration enjoying a two-thirds majority is at an election, and the people to do so are voters, not judges, generals or intelligence chiefs.

I'm sure President Hugo Chavez will be happy to hear The Guardian say that.

a FundaMentalist regime in Iran heading for a war with the west over a nuclear programme

Nuclear weaponry is the only reason that developments in Pakistan are a cause for concern.

My guess is that the US and Indian intelligence agencies done their best to fix the locations of Pakistan's nukes and that the two countries have plans to seize them should Pakistan show signs of imploding.

A defanged Pakistan will then be a problem for Pakistanis only - which is as it should be.

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Peace141:

100 Kashmiri youths killed last summer. Or 400 million Dalits are treated 3rd class

There was hardly any violence during the last summer in Kashmir, which has revived the tourist trade one again.

Indian population is about 1 billion, about 140 million of them are Muslims. How is it possible that there are 400 million Untouchables ( means those who cleans toilets, drains and deal with dead bodies) when in any city or towns, they are less than 1 percent of the population and in villages they are even less than that? I suppose 7-8 million is the correct figure.

For your information, they are now called SC ( sheduled castes) who get reee education at all levels, free accomodations from the municipalities, reservations in admissions in universities, special quota in jobs and scholarships. A number of them were Presidents, Chief Justice and other judges, Governors and Chief Ministers of the states, important ministers in the central government including the current speaker of the parliament.

How do you treat the same people ( Hindu untouchables) in Pakistan, when one of them was executed for blasphamy recently.

The Solution for Pakistan:

It was an artificial state created by the British; it should not exist in the present form. Balochistan ( invaded by pakistan in April 1948) should be an independent country. North west Frontier Province was a part of Afghanistan before 1893; it should go back to Afghanistan. Pakistan occupied Kashmir and Northern Area Province were occupied by Pakistan in October 1947; these should go back to Jammu & Kashmir state. Sindh should get its independence, when Scotland is about to be independent.
Thus only Pakistani Punjab can stay as Pakistan.

Message for the moderator: Don't erase out, until you can prove that I wrote anything offensive.

Islamophobiasucks:
whilst the state spends obscene amounts on military posturing and even a space program, the majority of Indians are still struggling to survive:

If I replace India by USA it would read:
whilst the state spends obscene amounts on military posturing and even a space program, at least 60 millions Americans are still struggling to survive:

It is also true about China, your favourite country ( I assume you are from Pakistan).

I wish people would be more careful before using this expression "failed state".
In Pakistan in almost all of the country the normal structure of the state such as schools, roads and public facilities function normally.
There is an over powerful and corrupt military, and generally a high level of corruption, but the basic structure continues to function.
What has put Pakistan on the rack in the last decades is the war in Afghanistan, with Pakistan solely being viewed as a conduit for supplies to what in every sense is a far less important country. One example of this is the conflation of the situation in the use of "AfPak", as if these two countries were identical.
The Pakistani military is dangerous and its power comes from the weakness and corruption of the political structure, but outsiders and outside governments seem to only see the situation in terms of what it means for NATO's war in Afghanistan.
The Pakistani military should be told in no uncertain terms that a coup would result in an immediate block on aid to them, simply because overthrowing a democratically elected government is unacceptable to the international community.

Why now?

This, from Foreign Policy:

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/01/05/pakistan_s_slow_motion_coup?page=0,0

suggests the endgame may be the military intend to block the PPP and call early elections to install their new favourite stooge, Imran Khan:

.... the Army's luck is changing along with that of Imran Khan, whose political fortunes have shifted in recent months. For years, the lothario cricket star turned politician could barely win his own seat. However, with what Pakistanis suspect is support from the military and ISI, Khan's Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf (PTI) party has successfully wooed numerous turncoat politicians and their swollen vote banks. Khan has asked politicians who are now joining PTI to vacate their current elected seats in the parliament both as a means of ensuring that they do not reverse course but also as a ploy to bring about fresh elections earlier than 2013, when general polls are to be held. So far, PTI does not have the numbers needed to bring down the government, but politics in Pakistan is about coalitions and vote banks. This is a long shot, but not impossible with ever more self-interested politicians from other parties flocking his way. Khan holds views that align well with those of the Army. He has roused the sentiments of Pakistan's masses by calling for a restructuring -- if not outright cessation -- of military cooperation with Washington. He supports the Afghan Taliban, believes that Pakistan's armed forces should not be operating against Pakistani militants, and espouses a strong -- if absurdly pandering and unrealistic -- position on corruption. His views on sharia and blasphemy are chameleon-like. He is anything to anyone.

Not only does the Army have a palatable political alternative to either the PPP or PML-N -- it now has a mechanism to bring about the downfall of this government: Pakistan's interventionist Supreme Court. The current chief justice, Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry, has long loathed Zardari because the latter opposed his reinstatement following his dismissal by then President Musharraf.....

Watchers of Pakistan's sordid history of military intrusion into civilian affairs understand the rich irony of this current saga. Not one of the generals who have overthrown varied governments has ever been charged with treason. Not one of the varied Supreme Court justices who violated their oaths to protect the Constitution by providing judicial sanction to Pakistan's varied military coups has ever been punished. So let's call the devil by his name: Memogate should be understood as a sophisticated attempt by the Army and intelligence agency to use the court to bring down this government.....

Hey, we agree on something!

I'm sure when it comes to sympathy for your average man, woman or child caught in a structural/political mess, subject to events beyond their control...

...we'd always meet somewhere in the middle Teacup.

Calling Imran Khan a stooge of the military is a vast oversimplification. As you may notice the writer of the article places military cooperation with Washington as her first priority. It may not be for Pakistanis.

However, with what Pakistanis suspect is support from the military and ISI, Khan's Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf (PTI) party

The obvious question is which Pakistanis? His position on the Taliban is that there should be talks, which most people seem to think is the only way forward.
He has always taken a strong anti-corruption line, which may resonate with ordinary Pakistanis. The "vote Banks" are a result of corruption and tribal thinking and his apst lack of success may be due to the fact that he was not part of this.
The fact that he is a Pashtu may explain his natural sympathy for both the opposition to NATO in Afghanistan and his argument that the Pakistan government should negotiate with the insurgents in FATA.
At the same time it makes it unlikely that he will succeed in Pakistan, given the dominance of Punjabi politicians.

I wish people would be more careful before using this expression "failed state".

Well, it's not Somalia true.

In Pakistan in almost all of the country the normal structure of the state such as schools, roads and public facilities function normally.

What do you base that on?

The Pakistani military should be told in no uncertain terms that a coup would result in an immediate block on aid to them, simply because overthrowing a democratically elected government is unacceptable to the international community.

America has already 'frozen' military aid, though civilian aid continues. What difference that will make I'm not sure, as China is their new 'all weather friend'

We could always intervene of course......(joking)

As you may notice the writer of the article places military cooperation with Washington as her first priority. It may not be for Pakistanis.

Another opinion

http://tribune.com.pk/story/320031/when-the-americans-leave/

What has put Pakistan on the rack in the last decades is the war in Afghanistan, with Pakistan solely being viewed as a conduit for supplies to what in every sense is a far less important country.

I'm not sure that is right: I think the US foreign policy establishment is acutely aware that Pakistan is by far the greater problem. And, as a point of detail, "AfPak" was coined in US foreign policy circles precisely to push the case (most associated with Holbrooke) that the US needed to think about Pakistan as much as Afghanistan, rather just fight in Afghanistan without considering the Pakistani problem. Take a look at this - it's a very sobering read indeed:

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/12/the-ally-from-hell/8730/

As for the War in Afghanistan being Pakistan's main problem, in a crowded field, i would put it some way down the list. Certainly after Pakistan's number one problem: the Pakistani Army.

Consider: the Pakistani Army's role as self-apponted guardian of the nation and sole arbiter of its foreign policy whether there is a civilian government or not; its obsessive anti-Indian policy; it's deliberate fostering of nationalist especially anti-Indian propaganda among he general populace; its burgeoning nuclear program; its relentless sponsorship or Islamic militants to fight as proxies in Kashmir and Afghanistan; it's relentless determination that Kabul must be ruled by said militants for fear that Afghanistan or some part of it might ever reach friendly relations with India.......

.....every single one of those factors was in place before the US intervention in Afghanistan, has remained in place since the intervention, and will remain in place after. It is hardwired into the Pakistani Army's DNA.

In relation to the Afghan War and its effect on Pakistan, the best argument for the US quitting the war is to try and lower, to a degree, some of the hatred it has garnered from the Pakistani general populace for that war. That indeed is one of the main reasons the US is quitting Afghanistan - rather than any real hope that the situation in Pakistan will improve in its own terns.

Ironically, the other thing that has earnedthe US that hatred over the year's is its support of Pakistani military governments. But can the US really afford to cut those ties and leave the Army entirely to it's own devices, given what is at stake? Read the article. It ain't easy.

Snafu and Fubar, thats a fair description of Pakistan. How anyone can look at it and say it's not a failed state is beyond me

Errr Celticberico in case you had not noticed Peace141, was trying to make the point regardless what the nature of the topic that concerns Pakistan or its people that the Guardian prints. Some people in this forum, especially those who are either indians (some, not all!) or pro-indian cannot seem to stop harping on about various negative aspects about Pakistan and its problems.....peace141 was not trying to imply that you cannot comment on such things.

I too feel really strongly that some of these hate-mongers cannot wait to go off-tangent on any article related to Pakistan and its people, and simply spew their poisenous and childish agenda on such forums rather than stick to the contents of the article!