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News > Feature - Is drunk sex date rape?
Is drunk sex date rape?

Posted 4/28/2011 Email story   Print story

    


by Staff Sgt. William Banton
1st Special Operations Wing Public Affairs


4/28/2011 - HURLBURT FIELD, Fla. (AFNS) -- Two young adults meet, get drunk and have sex.

What are the ramifications of alcohol and sex? When does inebriated sex become rape?

Brett Sokolow, a lawyer and founder of the National Center for Higher Education Risk Management, discussed these questions and more during an interactive jury exercise here April 21.
"I got involved in this because there are women in my life who are survivors (of rape), and I think it's important for men to have a family person's perspective," Mr. Sokolow said.

The program, which was sponsored by the Sexual Assault Prevention and Response Program officials, discusses incapacity and blackouts caused by alcohol to help dispel myths about alcohol, sex and rape.

Mr. Sokolow, who has presented this program at more than 1,900 colleges, high schools and military institutions, said he engages the audience by presenting them with a realistic account of date rape.

"We looked at it from the perspective of 'Lets clear up what the differences are (between sex and rape),'" said Janet Morrison, the Hurlburt Field sexual assault response coordinator.

The audience is placed in the position of a jury at a trial. Mr. Sokolow, taking care to not put blame on either the victim or the defendant, instructed the jury to listen to both sides of the events before voting on the innocence or guilt of the defendant.

As the events unfolded, the jury found out that Amy arrived at a party with her friends where she met and became flirtatious with Todd.

As the night continued, Todd chose to stop drinking. However, Amy continued to ask for more alcohol; Todd served Amy up to five gelatin shooters of higher-than-normal alcohol content, which as a professional bartender, he was asked to help prepare.

Amy initiated the first sexual advances. Though Todd knew Amy was drunk, at the time they started having sexual intercourse, Todd thought Amy was capable of giving consent.

The next day, Amy awoke without recollection of the majority of the night's events. She found a note from Todd, whom she doesn't remember meeting, with his name and phone number telling her that he had a good time and would like to see her again.

After hours of coping with what happened, and encouragement from a friend, Amy decided to go to the police.

Amy may have never truly recovered. At the time of her assault, she was a virgin. According to Mr. Sokolow, Amy wasn't waiting until marriage, though she was waiting to meet someone special before she had sex.

The above information is just a brief explanation of the scenario that Mr. Sokolow presented to the audience; the exercise spends more than an hour discussing every detail of the night's events while Mr. Sokolow openly answers any questions they have.

When asked to vote, the mock jury split their decision exactly in half.

After the vote, Mr. Sokolow held open discussions for people to talk about their concerns about the case.

The majority of the concerns were regarding Todd's intentions. People wanted to know what kind of sexual predator leaves their name and number after plotting to rape someone. They also questioned the fault of Amy in the situation because Todd never forced her to get drunk.

The actual jury convicted Todd of sexual assault. They were convinced that Todd was responsible for preparing and providing the alcohol that caused the blackout and that he knew she was drunk and had questionable judgment.

For Mr. Sokolow, the point of the exercise isn't the conviction but to allow people to think.

"One night for you could be a lifetime of pain for someone else," Mr. Sokolow said.

Mrs. Morrison echoed those sentiments.

"We are not going say don't go out and have a good time," she said. "Drink responsibly, and know what the difference is (between drunk sex and rape) so you don't end up in trouble."

(Editor's note: The case involving Amy and Todd is based on a true story, and the names have been changed to protect their identity.)



tabComments
5/11/2012 9:55:58 AM ET
Over 30 years ago I had a similar situation with a young airman in my dorm. Way to much to drink and she was definetly drunk and gave indicators and advances that she wanted more then kissing. Obviously at 19 I could have easily ignored right and wrong. I stopped and said we are ready for the possible consequences. Now I wasn't thinking of rape but I was still thinking of both of our lives. Now I agree that Todd received harsh actions and by the fact that he wanted to see her again he did not think he had raped anyone. But it seems he clearly had a plan to score. As a professional bartender getting someone drunk beyond their limit is something he clearly should have known was not only wrong but illegal. I agree Amy had ownership in this also but I bet nobody told her she was getting drinks with higher alcohol content oh and by the way Todd had prepared them. The point of this tragic story is that Todd and Amy could have been me and that young airman if not for the choice
Bryan, Missouri
 
5/10/2011 12:37:54 PM ET
Thank you all for your comments on the program I presented. It is hard to appreciate the 90-minute discussion from a short article. I am glad you are debating and I have just a few thoughts. First, all I do is neutrally provide facts about the case and facilitate discussion. There is no man-hating or penis bashing because offending those we are hoping to engage is pointless and most men are not rapists. Second, my comment to the reporter was that you should think about each case as if those involved were members of your family, make it personal. I was not suggesting that airmen lack family context, just that the loved-one perspective should be considered. Third, and finally, I see that you all like analogies a lot. Especially DUI. Nothing about this case was intended to suggest that Amy should be excused for her irresponsible acts. If she went out and committed a crime while drunk, like DUI, she should not be excused. But the question is whether she was driving... (rest of
Brett Sokolow, Pennsylvania
 
5/10/2011 12:01:55 PM ET
I know this story is old news but I can't resist adding more to the discussion. After reading the article and all the posts I began to wonder what would happen if I, an active duty male, drank too much one night and found myself in the company of a female who did the same and we woke the next morning with obvious signs that we had sex. If I couldnt remember giving consent can I report the incident? Will the female be charged Somehow I feel that I wouldn't be taken seriously. I'm all about education and awareness but please, let's not kid ourselves into believing that all things are equal when it comes to sexual consent and alcohol use. Unfortunately the dark cloud looms heavier over the boys.
Concerned Capt, Texas
 
5/7/2011 12:05:19 AM ET
The obvious solution is to NEVER date anyone else in uniform.
TSgt S Picka, MDL
 
5/5/2011 8:29:25 PM ET
I truly believe in victims advocacy. However the too-drunk-to-be-held-accountable scenarios don't always pass the common sense test. All reasonable men and women reading this should imagine this scenario for a second. Your significant other calls you to say that heshe went out drinking one night and hung out with someone. Your soul mate got drunk beyond belief then left with hisher drinking buddy to go somewhere private. Heshe now remembers having sex. And Oh BTW heshe also remembers initiating the drunken sex How would you respond A By saying...OMG You were a victim and the other person is fully responsible or B Give them the 3rd degree about hisher actions question hisher character possibly breakup etc.
PSC, CA
 
5/5/2011 3:57:18 PM ET
So called American Airman, great to hear from you again. Maybe you should take your own advice and keep YOUR prejudices in check. By agreeing with Eric SA you show an obvious lean in this situation. You obviously do not understand the role of a trained Victim Advocate. We assist men when they have been victims of sexual assault, which happens more often than you think. You, however, are mistakenly referring to the generic accused male of being the victim when a woman accuses him of rape. Again, prejudice.
Advocate, FL
 
5/5/2011 8:39:35 AM ET
Eric SA is spot on. And a lesson to all those so-called advocates keep your prejudices in check...you may have to represent the guy...all too often the victim in a case like this.
An AMERICAN AIRMAN, Houston TX
 
5/5/2011 12:46:02 AM ET
Regardless if you classify these situations as rape the rules regulations and laws do. People always say that the situation with Todd and Amy will never happen to them... Check the statistics of how many of them were dishonorably discharged from the military or kicked out of school or in jail or now must register as a sex offender. Victim Advocate says protect yourself. Don't become a victim better yet don't become an offender.
Victim Advocate, Land of the Morning Calm
 
5/4/2011 12:18:01 PM ET
Since when is a selfishly self-made drunk NOT responsible for her actions? If this is date rape then a DUI is NOT the responsibility of a driver it's the responsibility of whoever sold the drinker the alcohol. Give the DUI to the seller NOT the consumer. It's another reason to shift responsibility on another person who's really NOT responsible. A guy wants to have sex. HELLO! She asked to be drunk, he didn't slip her a mickey. Then when things get heated, a young guy...yeah that's right, a young guy full of libido has sex with a willing woman. HELLO! What's this politically correct world coming to? Why is this guy responsible for wanting to do a natural thing? It's another example of the military trying to force the church down our throats and abstain. C'mon man, as they say on ESPN. And this woman wakes up with regret and shame. Does regret and shame mean she was raped OR does it mean she has a hangover and lost her virginity? What does losing one's virginity... (rest
Eric Johnson, McGuire AFB
 
5/4/2011 12:07:47 PM ET
I think the important thing to remember is that Todd stopped drinking. I don't know if he was drunk. I t doesn't really say, but he was the less drunk of the two. I don't completely agree that the girl should have called the police. She chose to drink and she was coming on to him. But at the same time she was drunk and not in full control of what was coming out of her mouth. I think that Todd should have refused to sleep with someone who was THAT drunk, mostly out of self preservation. And maybe he did get her drunk on purpose. He was helping to make those shots stronger the usual and stopped drinking around the same time. That is suspicious to me. I am tired of men feeling like they are being discriminated against. Men get caught up more in these cases, yes, but for the most part the cases are legitimate. I do not think alchohol is a reason for any type of behavior and I think that if you are uncomfortable, don't put yourself in that situation. Have some situational awareness and...
Angie, Florida
 
5/3/2011 3:06:36 PM ET
Well men- moral of the story is if you don't want to get kicked out and strung up as a rapist- DON'T leave your name and number. This is disgusting. Ladies- know your limits. Let's protect our AF brothers from being unfairly charged with a heinous crime.
AF Female, DMAFB
 
5/2/2011 5:24:32 PM ET
If the female made bad choices then why wasn't she standing tall on the carpet also? I'm not defending Todd's actions because he should have known better too. The problem is the air of political correctness and red tape of doing what's acceptable versus doing what's RIGHT in regards to all variables and all involved. The mark of a true failure in disguise. Plus an adult with a clue will not make excuses for their bad judgement and will shoulder the responsibility of the outcome. It's called accountability folks.
MSgt Henry Thomas, BLV
 
5/2/2011 4:12:28 PM ET
When my wife was in college and doing the bar thing, she'd always arrive with a female friend and leave with that friend. It was a smart way to make sure neither girl ended up in a bad situation. As for me, I'm old enough to remember when a date ended with a kiss at the doorstep. Sex can wait until both parties are sober and clearheaded.
PB, US
 
5/2/2011 12:31:11 PM ET
As a woman I am highly offended that men take the blame in situations like this. Know your limits ladies... If you can't handle more than a few drinks then guess what, cut YOURSELF off of the bottle. It's called accountability. Have some situational awareness and don't let yourself lose control only to place the blame elsewhere when you sober up.
Julie, Beale AFB CA
 
5/2/2011 7:30:54 AM ET
I raised my daughter to recognize compromising situations and not to put herself in them: being alone with a man or men she doesn't know; being TOO trusting of men she DOES know because, yes, we look for opportunities and sometimes make mistakes; NOT to make her to fear ALL men ALL the time... but to make her smart and aware. An ounce of prevention is very smart.
MSgt Gregory, United States
 
5/1/2011 1:38:15 PM ET
I choose not to drink because I don't want the consequences of voluntary self-impairment and I don't want to impose them on others.Having made that responsible choice why is it now my job to clean up after those who chose otherwise.
Bill, Maryland
 
4/29/2011 11:20:31 PM ET
I guess to answer the title of this article according to the AF yes drunk sex is date rape.
JT, Destin FL
 
4/29/2011 11:01:05 PM ET
Where were her so-called friends the story says she was there with and why weren't they held responsible too? They failed to stop her over-drinking and advances on him. Didn't they notice her getting a little too tipsy and flirty? Note...best to have a signed contract and a breathalyzer handy these days if you go out to a party and expect to meet someone.
SW, OK
 
4/29/2011 4:34:29 PM ET
She flirted with him. She drank too much. She made the advances. She took him home. She willingly had sex. Sorry, I can't see the rape. I see a lawyer trying to make a buck off a girl's regret. I would like to know if there was a civil suit filed. if you want the truth follow the money.
Mark Van der Veer, Tinker AFB
 
4/29/2011 3:20:04 PM ET
Anyone ever seen that Chappelle's show skit where they joke about making women sign consent forms before sex? Maybe that's what we should all carry around with us. It is so sad that we live a world where the line between rape and sex has been blurred and called into question so many times that we need to have people go to seminars to distinguish the difference. All I can say is be careful guys as women have the upper hand here. Remember it doesn't matter what actually happened it only matters what the girl can convince a jury of. In my opinion it is just too easy. I've had two friends hook up with girls at parties then when the girl comes back looking for a relationship the guy says no way. Then what happened? You guessed it... he raped me... he forced me... blah blah. Listen up ladies... don't believe anything we tell you at a party a bar concert or anything like that. All we want is sex. If you aren't going to be comfortable with that in the morning move along.
Chris Kimball, Louisiana
 
4/29/2011 2:00:43 PM ET
I remember receiving this scenario during our yearly 'All Men Are Rapists' training. My question then and now is if a woman can be held responsible for driving a car while drunk, robbing a bank while drunk, shooting someone while drunk, or stealing something while drunk, why is she not responsible for sex while drunk? The SARC couldn't answer it then and I doubt she or Mr. Sokolow could answer it now.
CKJ, SWA
 
4/29/2011 12:22:54 PM ET
So what the article is saying is, if you're female, drunk, and the initiator of the act, it's not your fault. What a CROC. Let's start having all take responsibility for their actions. SHE drank to excess. SHE initiated the sex. SHE was to drunk to remember. If this was a case of Todd putting a date rape drug or forcing himself on her unwillingly then a rape conviction is the right course. Todd will now for the rest of his life have to register as a sex offender. GUYS, start carrying a breathelizer and a dash camera so when you're accused of remorse Rape you can defend yourselves.
Concerned, Tx
 
4/29/2011 10:05:53 AM ET
Soft society. While I tout myself as a moderate with a liberal leaning, I am VERY CONSERVATIVE on this one. People need to be responsible for their own selves. If Amy was DUI then who's fault is it? Does someone else take the fall for Amy's stupidity? In that case, Todd and Amy would BOTH share responsibility except as they imply, NO sexual predator would leave contact information. In addition, Amy in the similar position of being DUI is responsible to herself and others. Her regret is definitely NOT rape but a regret over having her virginity taken away - FROM HER OWN STUPIDITY AND RESPONSIBILITY! Oh, RMA, you got it right on. Sex can now be labeled as rape if a woman or girl with inflated years decides she wants to screw someone or is stupid enough NOT to take responsibility for her own actions. We have to STOP being so politically correct. It makes me vomit. Personally I would not want to touch a very drunk woman. It's just not sexy or alluring but very (rest of comment
Eric Johnson, McGuire AFB
 
4/29/2011 9:39:46 AM ET
Reverse the roles. The story would read completely different. I'm tired of the double standards.
John, Peterson AFB
 
4/29/2011 9:15:26 AM ET
Two Airmen get drunk and drive. They crash into each other. The male is arrested and the female is the victim? I don't think so. If you are at fault for drinking and driving then you are also at fault for drinking and engaging in sex. One of the effects of alcohol is to lower inhibitions. So it stands to reason you will do things after drinking you wish you hadn't when you are sober. The main thing to take from this is you had better be sure before you do something that you may end up in jail for it later.
Jerry, oklahoma
 
4/29/2011 8:19:44 AM ET
What a poorly conceived, researched and reported story. I'm sure there was much more to the exercise than is revealed in a shoddy piece of journalism. Based just upon what I read here I would have the same reaction and opinion as the other male posters. This does a real diservice to effort to combat sexual assault in the USAF.
DM, D.C.
 
4/29/2011 8:03:13 AM ET
All actions have consequences and getting drunk then initiating sex is hardly the same as rape. The entire idea that a female is to be considered raped even after admitting to initiating sex makes it appear that women are lesser creatures and should not be expected to show any responsibility or self control. Rubbish!
C Millsap Tinker AFB, OK
 
4/29/2011 4:03:37 AM ET
Though I am not defending rapists, I want to keep things equal here. Even though Todd stopped drinking earlier, his judgement was impared. BAC would have shown that. There could be a same argument that he was impared to a point that he could not have properly asked for her concent. Regardless, drunk sex is irresponsible and dangerous.
S, Germany
 
4/29/2011 1:47:28 AM ET
Mr. Sokolow initially states that HE thinks it's important for men to have a family person's perspective. So we naturally grew up totally in the wild. How can Mr. Sokolow facilitate a non-biased program without blame when his own words suggest that his purpose is to specifically educate men? What about the supposedly inherent family oriented female? What kind of family values are being demonstrated by her actions here? Shame on you again, Big Blue, for ruining a real educational opportunity and endorsing this nonsensical PC rubbish. I'll remember this next time as I make sure to have my dogtags engraved with Viking or Pirate.
Leif Erikson, Hawaii
 
4/29/2011 12:24:37 AM ET
And this is why I never have nor will have sex with any female military personnel. I personally know three people who have gotten SARC'd on some bs like this. In one of the cases, nothing ever happened between them. They just met at a party and passed words. How many people do I know who got regret rape as civilians? NONE. This is one part of AF culture that makes me sick. Even OSI will tell you just because you were drunk and later regret it doesn't make it rape.
Eric, Southwest Asia
 
4/28/2011 9:32:05 PM ET
People -- men and women -- need to start taking responsibility for their actions. Know the difference between rape, sexual assault, and simply having consensual sex with someone you wish you hadn't. Girls, just because you regret the sex does not mean you cry rape. And men, yes sometimes a girl is too drunk. Be gentlemen. There is always tomorrow. You shouldn't have to get the girl drunk to get some. And obviously, as weve learned from articles like these, the signals are not always what you-he-she-we may think they are. Hooking up at a party-bar-wherever is different now. Hate it or disagree, but it is what it is. Therefore, look out for your friends, guys and girls. Just as most people won't let their friends drink and drive, don't let them get into a situation that could be questionable. Educate your Airmen. The younger men and women coming in need the guidance and wisdom from their supervisors. They need to know the rules. Judgment is impaired when under the influence.
K, Colorado
 
4/28/2011 8:22:53 PM ET
There's another issue with this situation. They hadn't met before this party so unless they discussed sex before Amy got too trashed to know what she was doing, how was Todd to know that Amy was a virgin and saving herself? For all he knew, she was a sleep-around party girl and he got lucky enough to hook up with her. His intentions seem sincere since he left his number and asked for another date. It seems all responsibility for these unfortunate couplings is placed on the guy. What if he'd been too drunk to understand the situation? Would he still be labeled as a rapist? So guys who get drunk and have sex are rapists but girls who get drunk and have sex are victims? Wow, what a world.
Gary, WA
 
4/28/2011 5:42:45 PM ET
I saw this brief when I was at the Academy a couple of years ago. Apparently the Todd guy and his friends mixed the jello shots with moonshine. Later on Todd would say that he didn't know it was moonshine. Todd kept insisting Amy drink the jello shots. All that Todd had to drink was 3 beers he chugged prior to speaking with Amy. I believe the speaker said Todd was a bigger guy too. So overall I'd say Todd sounds kind of sketch. However this story still doesn't answer the mutual "both people equally drunk" scenario.
The Dude, USA
 
4/28/2011 4:15:17 PM ET
I won't fault the author but his article does not do justice to the presentation by Mr. Sokolow and does not share all the details and context of the story. Why be so quick to judge and spew an uninformed opinion here? Have any of you even been to this presentation? I have. The situation was actually more complex than explained here which is why attending the whole presentation drove HALF the audience to vote the defendant guilty. Great job being quick to judge. It's nice to know how many misogynists are out there in the AF these days.
Advocate, FL
 
4/28/2011 2:41:19 PM ET
They were convinced that Todd was responsible for preparing and providing the alcohol that caused the blackout. So using this as a precedent, fast food joints should all be found guilty in court of making people fat. They prepare and provide food that causes obesity. It's the exact same thing. Why can't we hold women with questionable ethics responsible and quit the liberal man-bashing?
daot, GA
 
4/28/2011 2:37:51 PM ET
What I don't understand is why they don't discriminate between sex and rape. They are two different things. Rape is about power and control not sex. What this is saying is that there is no difference now between rape and sex so watch out guys. If you have consensual sex with a woman drunk or not it can be labeled as rape.
RMA, SA
 
4/28/2011 2:22:08 PM ET
Regret should not equal "I was raped." There is a point where people should have responsibility even if they did something stupid they wish they hadn't done. I am much more fond of the bystander intervention training specifically because it gets rid of the "men are rapists" mantra of the typical SARC briefing. Amy's friends/wingmen should have stopped her drinking and made sure she got home, and Todd's should have had him knock it off. At the end of the day though "I did what with who" should not equal "I was raped." Todd was drinking and if he had gone to the cops first, the roles could have easily been reversed. Is that what responsibility is now? Beat the other person to file a report
STeve, USA
 
4/28/2011 12:36:05 PM ET
Oh hey guys, we're all rapists again. Nevermind that he was drunk too -- If you have the penis, you're a rapist.
Sean, CONUS
 
4/28/2011 12:01:34 PM ET
If Todd had contacted the police first he would be the victim and Amy would be the one in cuffs right
Mike, WA
 
4/28/2011 12:01:31 PM ET
There are too many cases now a days where girls will say they were raped and the guy takes the hit for it. Honestly, who would you believe, the crying girl or the guy just trying to tell the truth? I know girls who have been raped and it makes me mad that guys would do that, but there is always the other side where to girl just wants to get back at the guy and says she was raped.
about out, mnt home afb id
 
4/28/2011 11:58:18 AM ET
Mrs. Morrison's sentiments should read: Drink responsibly and know what the difference is unless you are the female. In that case take no responsibility for your actions and blame someone else for your loss of control. There is a difference between slipping someone something without them knowing and someone drinking alcohol in excess of their own will. It is time for people to start taking responsibility for their actions again.
M Cole, Lackland AFB
 
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