ABC "This Week": Transcript: Senator Webb on Iraq

From Washington, 'This Week" with George Stephanopoulos. Anchoring this morning, Terry Moran.

TERRY MORAN (ABC NEWS)

(OC) Well, good morning, everyone. George is on a well deserved vacation and as the summer draws to a close, the war in Iraq is once again dominating the agenda here in Washington. In a few days, Congress and the president will begin debating some fundamental questions - is the troop surge ordered by the president in January working? Should it? Can it be sustained, or is it now time to withdraw from Iraq? We're joined now by two leading members of the Senate Armed Services Committee here in the studio. Virginia Democratic Senator Jim Webb, and from Austin, Texas, Republican John Cornyn. Welcome back to "This Week" both of you, gentlemen.

SENATOR JIM WEBB (DEMOCRAT

Nice to be here. Thank you.

TERRY MORAN (ABC NEWS)

(OC) Well, let's start with Vietnam, because President Bush kicked off the debate by doubling his rhetorical bets on Iraq again this week after years of insisting that Iraq is not like Vietnam, the president now says it is like Vietnam. Arguing that if American troops withdraw, Iraqis could face the same kind of human rights catastrophe that people of Southeast Asia suffered in the 1970s.

PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH (UNITED STATES)

One unmistakable legacy of Vietnam is that the price of America's withdrawal was paid by millions of innocent citizens whose agonies would add to our vocabulary new terms like boat people, re-education camps and killing fields.

TERRY MORAN (ABC NEWS)

(OC) Senator Webb, you're a Vietnam veteran, won the Navy Cross there and have made no secret over the years that you feel that America betrayed the Vietnamese people and abandoned them to a cruel fate. Isn't that what the president is saying here will happen here to the Iraqis if we withdraw?

SENATOR JIM WEBB (DEMOCRAT

Well, I think that I may be one of the few people in government who still on the one hand strongly believe in what we attempted to do in Vietnam, and on the other hand, from the beginning have strongly warned against the strategic blunder of going into Iraq. They simply are not comparable. If you look at even the opinions of the American people, despite the way that the Vietnam war ended eight years after the Gulf of Tonkin, in 1972, the American people by a margin of 74% to 11% still believed it was important that South Vietnam not fall to Communism. The overall strategic objective was strong the implementation became flawed. In Iraq we have a reverse situation. We have an overall strategic objective that was not directly related to what we were attempting to do in the war against international terrorism. We have good people implementing a bad strategy. It's just not the same situation. And in terms of the aftermath -

TERRY MORAN (ABC NEWS)

(OC) Now that we're there -

SENATOR JIM WEBB (DEMOCRAT

In terms of the aftermath, no one in a responsible position in government is saying that we should pull the plug in Iraq and have a precipitous withdrawal. What we're trying to do is to say eventually we have to withdraw from Iraq. We have to draw down our troops. Even the military realities of the surge which have up-swung the cycles of deployment are going to mandate that we reduce our troops and eventually leave. We're not going to have stability in that region until the American troops are out of Iraq. We have to do it in a way that brings in the other countries around the region, allows us to focus on international terrorism and doesn't destabilize the region, but it must be done.

TERRY MORAN (ABC NEWS)

(OC) But practically, how would you propose the United States go about helping to prevent what could very well be a humanitarian catastrophe?

SENATOR JIM WEBB (DEMOCRAT

Well, here's where we are with the surge. Let's just start with that because it's going to become the big issue that's debated over the next several weeks. We have a situation where the goals, if there were strategic goals, the goals of the surge was to provide the Iraqi government with enough space to get itself up and also the clear objective stated by the president was that by December or November - I can't remember which month, I think it was November, actually - that the Iraqis would be in control of all the provinces in Iraq. Those are not going to happen. So what we have is the same situation we've been dealing with for the last four years where the United States military has controlled its tactical battle space, done an excellent job, the Iraqi government has fallen by the wayside. They're a very weak central government, much like the Lebanese were in the 1980s. And the Bush administration, this administration has not vigorously pursued the diplomatic umbrella under which we can bring stability to the region.

TERRY MORAN (ABC NEWS)

(OC) So diplomacy may be the answer. Let me go to Senator Cornyn on that. Senator Cornyn, was it a good idea for the president to try to rally the American public to support the war in Iraq by saying, well it's kind of like Vietnam?

SENATOR JOHN CORNYN (REPUBLICAN

Well, I think there are some - it is an appropriate analogy as far as the president attempted to use it in his speech. Senator Webb and I joined 92 others of our colleagues in the Senate in voting for an amendment that I offered before we left for August that said that we should do everything in our power to avoid a failed state in Iraq because of the danger to American security. And, of course, we also laid out in that amendment the fact that there would be a vast humanitarian crisis, millions of people perhaps killed, refugees putting a lot of pressure on the region. Of course, Iran being emboldened, as it already has been, to increase its domination of the region, and perhaps, a regional conflict there, not the least of which would create a failed state where al Qaeda could use as a launching pad to kill more Americans. So I think the part of the analogy that is not apt is that when we left Vietnam, the enemy did not follow us here. They will follow us here if we allow Iraq a failed - to become a failed state and allow al Qaeda a launching pad to reorganize and to energize their activities around the world.

TERRY MORAN (ABC NEWS)

(OC) Well, let me shift gears a little bit to the political stakes here. This is, obviously, a big question for everybody running for office in the coming campaign, and the ad wars have already begun to heat up. And I want you to take a look at an ad by a group called Freedom's Watch. It's a bunch of White House supporters fronted by Ari Fleischer, the former White House press secretary, and they're running a series of very tough, emotional ads. Take a look.

MALE (CAMPAIGN AD)

I know what I lost. I also know that if we pull out now, everything I've given in sacrifice will mean nothing. They attacked us and they will again. They won't stop in Iraq. We are winning on the ground and making real progress. It's no time to quit. It's no time for politics.

TERRY MORAN (ABC NEWS)

(OC) Senator Webb, first as a veteran, how do you answer that soldier?

SENATOR JIM WEBB (DEMOCRAT

Well, I think that the United States military is a mirror of our society. We have people in the military who feel politically one way. We have military people who feel the other way. And it's our responsibility as leaders to put the political objectives into place that fit the country. When I was a Marine in Vietnam, I had pretty vague political ideas, but I knew that I loved my country, that I wanted to serve my country and that I wanted to take care of the Marines that were under my responsibility. And so my feelings about having served in a war, and I think most American military people when you look at poll after poll relate to their feeling of service, and we leave political views aside. Now, in terms of what the message in there was, that's a very deceptive message when they say they attacked us. The Iraqis didn't attack us. This is what the administration has been doing since '01. We were attacked by al Qaeda. Iraq was not directly threatening us. The best way for us to have dealt with international terrorism and with al Qaeda was not to have gone into Iraq but to maintain the best strategic, maneuverable forces in the world out where they could go after international terrorism. Al Qaeda didn't come to Iraq until we went to Iraq.

TERRY MORAN (ABC NEWS)

(OC) Well, let me ask Senator Cornyn on this subject of public support, how long can the president sustain a war that the American public no longer supports?

SENATOR JOHN CORNYN (REPUBLICAN

Well, Terry, the message of that soldier that was in that ad was consistent with the message that I've heard from soldiers I've visited at Walter Reed Army Medical Center in DC, Brooke Army Medical Center in San Antonio, and as recently as yesterday at the Darnell Army Hospital at Fort Hood right here in central Texas. They are the - the morale is high. They understand the importance of their mission. And they want the politicians, basically, to allow them to do what they do well in which the National Intelligence Estimate says we are succeeding at, and that is to make Iraq safer, not just for the Iraqis, but because by denying a failed state to al Qaeda and other terrorists in Iraq, we make America safer. That ought to be the ultimate test of any policy, and I support the surge because I believe the surge is helping to make us safer, giving us a chance of success, rather than a guaranteed failure, which a rapid redeployment or withdrawal would guarantee.

TERRY MORAN (ABC NEWS)

(OC) Well, you mentioned the National Intelligence Estimate, which does say there has been security progress on the ground. And this week some of the commanders on the ground are speaking up about this notion of withdrawal. General Rick Lynch, who is head of the 3rd Infantry Division, got 15,000 troops in control of areas south of Baghdad, came out and said it is not the time to withdraw. Listen to what he had to say.

MAJOR GENERAL RICK LYNCH (US ARMY)

Well, if soldiers were to leave, coalition soldiers were to leave, having fought hard for that terrain, having denied the enemy their sanctuaries, what happens is the enemy would come back. He'd start building the bombs again. He'd start attacking the locals again. He'd start exporting that violence into Baghdad and we would take a giant step backwards.

TERRY MORAN (ABC NEWS)

(OC) So whatever security progress has been achieved, purchased with American sacrifice, you'd give up?

SENATOR JIM WEBB (DEMOCRAT

I don't think it's a question of giving anything up. It's a question of how you fight a guerrilla war and how you use your troops. I have met very few generals in my life who don't want more troops. One of them actually who said he didn't need more troops was General Casey, who preceded General Petraeus in Iraq and was saying that the more the American troops do, the less incentive there is for the Iraqis to step forward and to do what they are supposed to do. Guerrilla warfare is sort of like the game the kids play, Whack-a-Mole. You know, if you move into this area, the guerilla forces are going to move somewhere else. And until we can get an umbrella in this region where different countries take responsibility, like for instance, the Saudis need to step up and in an overt way take more responsibility for the solution in the Sunni areas, rather than running Saudis in to do a lot of this guerrilla work. The Iranians need to step up. Until we have that, you're not going to have stability in Iraq and when Senator Cornyn mentions rightly about the dangers of a failed state in Iraq, we are on the verge of having a failed state now even with the Americans there. We're seeing on the average more than 60 Iraqis killed in sectarian violence every day.

TERRY MORAN (ABC NEWS)

(OC) Although that is down somewhat but one thing that hasn't happened -

SENATOR JIM WEBB (DEMOCRAT

Well, no, actually, it's not down. You were seeing an average of about 30 killed a day last year. It's up to about 60 killed a day this year. If you extrapolate the population, that's a thousand Americans being killed in sectarian violence every day. We have 2 million internally - internal refugees inside Iraq. We have the effect on Jordan with 2 million refugees over there. The Kurds are forcing a situation with the Turks. This can only be dealt with in an international consortium.

TERRY MORAN (ABC NEWS)

(OC) And with some kind of central government that's doing something. Senator Cornyn, as Senator Warner who came out this week and said it's time to start withdrawing the troops noted, this surge was designed to give the Iraqi government some breathing room to cut some deals, to reach some national reconciliation. They haven't. They've squandered it. So what's the point?

SENATOR JOHN CORNYN (REPUBLICAN

Well, Senator Warner is a great patriot and student of history, and he's clearly sending a signal to the Iraqis that our patience is not unlimited, and that's correct, but I don't think it's in our best interest to put so much pressure on the new Iraqi government that it absolutely collapses. That would result in the failed state that both Senator Webb and I have said we don't want to allow to happen because it would make us less safe here at home. But I do believe the surge itself as the National Intelligence Estimate says, has worked over the last six months. The majority leader, Harry Reid, called it a failure before it even started. Now -

TERRY MORAN (ABC NEWS)

(OC) But there's no political progress.

SENATOR JOHN CORNYN (REPUBLICAN

Well, you'd have to start with military success and enhanced security before you can expect the political reconciliation to occur. I'm frustrated by the slow pace but I don't think the solution is to pull the plug, result in that failed state, which will make America less safe. It's to continue to urge the Iraqis to get their act together, to do the political reconciliation while we can grow up from the provinces and local levels the kind of local government that will perhaps provide a framework for that ultimate political reconciliation that we all want.

TERRY MORAN (ABC NEWS)

(OC) That's the debate we'll have here in Washington in the coming days. Before I let you go, Senator Webb, would you accept a place on the Democratic ticket as the vice presidential candidate?

SENATOR JIM WEBB (DEMOCRAT

I am not looking for any of that. One quick comment about Senator Warner -

TERRY MORAN (ABC NEWS)

(OC) That's not a no. That's not a no.

SENATOR JIM WEBB (DEMOCRAT

Because, you know, Senator Warner, as you may know, I served on his staff my last year in the Marine Corps. He and I have a lot in common. We both served in the Marine Corps. He served in Korea, I served in Vietnam. We were both secretaries of the Navy, we both represent Virginia. And I think that this was a bold step forward. And he's trying to send the same signal that we were just discussing, and that is, you can't rely on us forever. We need American combat troops off the streets in Iraq and we need Iraqis to replace them.

TERRY MORAN (ABC NEWS)

(OC) As I said, that is the debate coming in the next few days here in Washington. Senator Webb, Senator Cornyn, thanks very much for joining us.

SENATOR JOHN CORNYN (REPUBLICAN

Thanks, Terry.