- Date on negative 8/10/12 - artolog
Mrs. Lorillard Spencer (LOC)
Bain News Service,, publisher.
Mrs. Lorillard Spencer
[between ca. 1910 and ca. 1915]
1 negative : glass ; 5 x 7 in. or smaller.
Notes:
Title from unverified data provided by the Bain News Service on the
negatives or caption cards.
Forms part of: George Grantham Bain Collection (Library of Congress).
Format: Glass negatives.
Rights Info: No known restrictions on publication.
Repository: Library of Congress, Prints and Photographs Division, Washington, D.C. 20540 USA, hdl.loc.gov/loc.pnp/pp.print
General information about the Bain Collection is available at hdl.loc.gov/loc.pnp/pp.ggbain
Higher resolution image is available (Persistent URL): hdl.loc.gov/loc.pnp/ggbain.19575
Call Number: LC-B2- 3550-7
Comments and faves
Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (2 weeks ago | reply)
At first I thought it was en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katherine_Emmons_Force. The evidence by Swanq points to Mary Ridgeley Sands (1885-1936). It appears that Lorillard Spencer, Sr., (1860-1912) was married to a much younger woman in his second marriage. She was 22 years younger than him.
darlene* added this photo to her favorites. (2 weeks ago)
artolog (2 weeks ago | reply)
This negative is dated 8/10/12, and Katherine Force did not become Mrs. Lorillard Spencer until December, 1922, at the age of 31.
Two other Bain photos of "Mrs. Lorillard Spencer":
swanq (2 weeks ago | reply)
Given the date anomaly, I wondered if the picture might actually have been the wife of the earlier Lorillard Spencer [b: 14 Feb 1860 New York, New York, NY d: 14 Mar 1912 New York, New York, NY], the former Caroline Suydam Berryman [ b: 28 Dec 1861 New Haven, New Haven, CT d: 06 Apr 1948 Newport, RI]. But I think the woman here is more likely to be 21 than 51.
books.google.com/books?id=JLfRCgAPCyIC&pg =PA96&lp... has a picture of Caroline Suydam Berryman Spencer.
However, I'm fairly certain that the Wikipedia page for Katharine Emmons Force (as of 2012-11-26) has the Lorillard Spencer wives mixed up.
swanq (2 weeks ago | reply)
But the answer to the anomaly may be in www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/miss-katherine- force-wed-ma...
The Lorillard Spencer that Katherine Emmons Force married had been married before, to Mary Ridgeley Sands. See www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/miss-katherine- force-wed-ma... which mentions his divorce.
So the photo here may well be Mary Ridgeley Sands. She and Lorillard Spencer were married in September 1905. See New-York tribune., September 22, 1905, Page 7, col 5
chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83030214/19 05-09-22/ed-...
for the wedding announcement.
NYT of September 17, 1905
query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F40C1 7FE3B5A12738...
mentions that Mary Ridgley Sands (soon to be Mrs. Lorillard Spencer) is to be seen in the pictorial supplement. However, I don't find pictorial supplements accessible online.
NYT of May 16, 1915
query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F60C1 4F9395B17738...
has a picture of "Mrs. Lorillard Spencer and son" but I find no clarification as to her name before marriage. The picture is a possible match -- but not a certainty.
swanq (2 weeks ago | reply)
Chasing the former Miss Mary Ridgeley Sands, then Mrs. Lorillard Spencer, I find that she married Henry Pierrepont Perry on June 19, 1927
See NYT of June 20, 1927 (requires subscription)
select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F509 17FD3A5D1773...
She died in 1936. See NYT of June 14, 1936
select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F209 10FC3D59167B...
artolog (2 weeks ago | reply)
So many Lorillards, so many wives...
So, here's a 1913 article about Mrs. Lorillard Spencer, widowed by the death of her husband in March, 1912, about to spend a year in the Philippines "To Teach Murderous Moros". The interview granted partly to clear up confusion, as the portrait of her daughter-in-law of the same name had been printed in a story about her trip, to their mutual embarrassment.
The article contains a sketch of the elder Mrs. L. S.
So, this confusion has been going on for about a century before we waded into it.
query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F50A1 0F73A5D13738...
Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (2 weeks ago | reply)
Mary Ridgeley Sands (1885-1936) . She was born on August 15, 1885 to Frederic Parker Sands (1854–1905) and Julia Elizabeth Simpson (1859–1946). She was the second wife of Lorillard Spencer, Sr. (1860-1912).
Here is her passport photo from 1923:
Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) added this photo to his favorites. (2 weeks ago)
artolog (2 weeks ago | reply)
Well, that's the woman in the photo at the top of the page, I would think.
The article I linked to says that the widow of Lorillard Spencer, Sr. and mother to L.S., Jr., was the former Catherine Suydam Berryman, and they had married in 1882.
So, more confusion.
Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (2 weeks ago | reply)
His first wife died in 1948: "Mrs. L. Spencer Dies In Home At Newport. New York Times. April 7, 1948. Mrs. Caroline S. Berryman Spencer, widow of Lorillard Spencer, who was prominent in New York and Newport society and' was editor of the Illustrated American ..."
I am sure Lorillard Spencer, Sr. confused his children when he married a woman two years younger than his son.
artolog (2 weeks ago | reply)
The New York times might have said that Caroline was one of two widows of L.S., Sr. I suppose they considered it impolite to mention that. So Sr. had two wives, Caroline and Mary. And Jr. had two wives also? someone by whom he had the son pictured in NYT 5/16/15 and Katherine Force in 1922?
Or was Mary the wife of LS Junior?
This Times article says Mary married L.S., Jr. in September, 1905.
Sherazadh added this photo to her favorites. (2 weeks ago)
swanq (2 weeks ago | reply)
The summary information I have compiled is:
Lorillard Spencer [b: 14 Feb 1860 New York, New York, NY d: 14 Mar 1912 New York, New York, NY]
In 1882, he married Caroline Suydam Berryman [ b: 28 Dec 1861 New Haven, New Haven, CT d: 06 Apr 1948 Newport, RI] Caroline was the woman who went to the Phillipines to "teach murderous Moros" -- after her husband died.
Their son was Lorillard Suydam Spencer (July 4, 1883 - June 10, 1939), who is often referred to as "Lorillard Spencer Jr." or "Major Lorillard Spencer."
He married twice:
Firstly, Mary Ridgeley Sands (1885-1936). They married in September 1905. They divorced in 1922. She was remarried, to Henry Pierrepont Perry, on June 19, 1927 and died in 1936.
They had a son, Lorillard Spencer III (1906-1981)
Secondly, Katherine Emmons Force (March 12, 1890 - September 8, 1956). They married in December 1922.
They had three children: Stephen Wolcott (April 22, 1925 - July 21, 2010); William Hurlbut Force (possibly born Aug. 13, 1929, still alive when Stephen died); Katherine Talmadge Lorillard (who was still alive when her mother died in 1956, but was not mentioned as a survivor in her brother Stephen's 2010 obituary).
>>>
Stephen's 2010 obituary is at query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9501E FD7133AF936A...
Children of Lorillard Spencer, Jr. mentioned at www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/forums/astor-fa mily/20482-g...
Geneaology of earlier Spencers at freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~da v4is/ODTs/SP...
artolog (2 weeks ago | reply)
Adding to the potential confusion here.. Lorillard Spencer b. 1860 was the son of Lorillard Spencer, b. 1826.
So, swanq, you are saying that Spencer b. 1860 was married only once, to Caroline Berryman, and Mary Sands was married to his son, Spencer b. 1883?
artolog (2 weeks ago | reply)
Major Lorillard Spencer b. 1883:
swanq (2 weeks ago | reply)
@artolog: Yes, I believe Lorillard Spencer b. 1860 was married just the once and that Mary Sands married his son.