>> From the Library of Congress in Washington, D.C.
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>> Good morning.  I am Jim Billington, the Librarian of Congress, and it's my pleasure to welcome you to this Library of Congress symposium on Carl Jung and the Red Book.  I am glad that the symposium has generated so much interest as the crowd here assembled clearly indicates.  It's possible that Jung would have been uncomfortable with the location of this symposium.  In one of his visions in the Red Book he describes a bad experience he had on the library.
[ Laughter ]
While there, Jung was beset by a squadron of ghosts who persecuted 16th century Anabaptist.  The squadron is on its way to Jerusalem to pray at the holy sites when Jung struck up a conversation.  The Anabaptist leader and the chief librarian of unidentified library to be sure, called the police and had him committed to the local insane asylum.
[ Laughter ]
On the other hand, I suspect that Jung might have found this library not entirely uncongenial since the exhibit that is upstairs, and you will have a chance to see in the course of the day, is right next to Jefferson's reconstituted library.  Jefferson organized knowledge as you may be aware on three categories, memory, reason and imagination.  Contrast that with the multiple subdivisions of knowledge that you'll find in bureaucratized academia today.  And, but it certainly bears in Jefferson's life as well as his library the kind of active imagination that was one of the trademarks of Freud's thinking.  So as Librarian of Congress, I think this library being a multi-medial resource of all kinds with unparalleled collections of music, of prints and photographs, of cinema, of all kinds of expressions of creative imagination, I think it's appropriate and also in my sometime capacity as historian of Russian culture, and this is not in the exhibit but it's something that struck me as I was reading some of this material and going through the exhibit.  In the 10 years that Russia lived without censorship, there are only 10 years in their history up until the fall of the Soviet System.  There was an explosion of creativity which if not directly influenced by Jung but certainly has many points of parallel movement on voyage of Russian culture as it literally exploded for long periods between, the decade between 1907 and 1917.  There were the late Rimsky-Korsakov in the early Kandinsky, both believed that there--since both sound and light were thought to be solely transmitted by waves that they must both be expressions of some deeper formation and some deeper elements in what they didn't call but I think implicitly acknowledged was a kind of unconscious or subconscious level out of which culture came.  And so, you can see in their works of that period and even more in the works of Scriabin and a whole bunch of other people, Scriabin who wanted to introduce the other senses, sight and not just sight and sound but touch and smell as part of the aroma of messages, so to speak, that the multimedia of culture had.  The climax of the enormous fertility of what Russians of today rediscovering in what's--from what they always called the Silver Age or the Russian Renaissance was a great project that lasted on to the '20s until its leader Pavel Florensky was executed in the gulag, one of the earliest of gulags, was a universal dictionary of symbols called symbolarium.  That, in post Soviet Russia that is a major project of their--one of their great minds and founder of the Russian school of semiotics, a man named Ivanov, who we've been fortunate to have on our advisory council up here at the Kluge Center within the library.  So, if not directly influenced by Jung, it's interesting that there is a kind of parallel, parallel track of deep investigation with this project that's had very obvious resemblances to the work and the aspirations of Jung.  So, I think there's much more probably to be discovered in terms of parallelisms and perhaps of direct influences yet to be unveiled from the still imperfectly inventory world records, the stave sets of rhetoric, many of which are event in another small repository in New York looked very much like the man of literacy [phonetic] in the Red Book.  The Red Book, you know, as you know was published in digital facsimile in 2009 after being accessible to the public since its creation several decades earlier.  It was the product of an extraordinary entirely unanticipated period in Jung's life from 1913 to 1917.  During which he endured what he called a prolonged confrontation with his unconscious, which produced a stream of fantasies, visions, dreams which were so strange and frightening that he later said they were, they "threatened to break me".  Both he and the ghostly figure and the librarian in Jung's account, that I just alluded, thought that he might be going mad.  Jung, however, summoned the moral and intellectual stamina to distance himself from these assaults from the unconscious even as they intruded on him.  In an effort to understand his experiences, Jung recorded them in words and artwork in the Red Book, the original of which is on display two floors above you in our Jung exhibit.  Everything, Jung later said, derived from confrontations with the unconscious.  The experiences he described in the Red Book furnished him with raw material to construct his system of analytical psychology, excuse me, one of the major efforts of the 20th century to unlock the mysteries of the human mind.  Today, we will hear a distinguished group of Jungian experts from the United States and Europe and we thank them all for coming often from long distances to explain and assess the experiences that Jung described in the Red Book.  Then they will also tell us what impact they think the Red Book will have outside the Jungian community on psychology and related field.  So I look forward to intellectual thesis, I'm sure we all do.  Many individuals and organizations have assisted us in making it financially possible to mount our exhibit and to present today's symposium.  And I'm happy to recognize them, the James Madison Council of the Library of Congress, the Oswald Family Foundation, the Honorable J. Richard Fredericks - one of our former ambassadors to Switzerland, the Embassy of Switzerland, the Jung Society of Washington, the Philemon Society, the Archives for Research for Archetypal Symbolism, the International Association for Analytic Psychology.  And in addition, contributions from the C.G. Jung Institute of San Francisco, W.W. Norton and Company, the Honorable Joseph B. Gildenhorn - the more recent Ambassador to Switzerland, and the Jungian Analysts of Washington Association.  Finally, let me conclude on a more personal note that the staging of this event, I think, owes a good deal to an old friend of mine who I've had a chance to have some deep conversations with in 2003 Phil Zabriskie, known to many of you, a Jungian analyst, and his widow Beverley Zabriskie, another luminary among the Jungian scholars and practitioners who will chair the first session.  And ladies and gentlemen, it's my privilege to now get out of the way and turn it over to the experts beginning with the highly esteemed and great friend, Beverley Zabriskie.
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[ Applause ]
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>> Good morning and welcome.  And as a Jungian analyst I like the back stories and the hidden stories.  So I would just like to tell you a few of those.  First of all, I want to thank James Billington, a gentleman and a scholar and we are lucky to have him serving the library and serving the country.
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[ Applause ]
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Sixty years ago this month, James Billington graduated from Princeton as the valedictorian of the class.  And Philip Zabriskie was the salutatorian.  And the two of them went off to Oxford and fast forward to 2003 and there's the 100th anniversary of the road scholars at Oxford and in London.  And at a dinner together, Jim mentioned the idea of a Jung exhibit at the Library of Congress and he Philip began to discuss this and he said, but what was needed was a centerpiece, a Jungian centerpiece, around which an exhibit could be formed.  We were in London, we called up Sonu Shamdasani.  Sonu came over, had dinner together and that was the night that the idea for this exhibit really began to take form.  And Sonu already was working on the possibility of the Red Book.  He'd been working on it since, I believe, 1997.  I'll tell you more about that in a minute.  But it was in conversation and it was in friendship among scholars and gentlemen that this idea really emerged.  And then when the Red Book was published, it was thanks to Sonu's work with the members of the Jung family, three of whom are here and I would like you to know them, Andreas Jung who is Jung's grandson and the occupant of Jung's house in Kusnacht and his wife Franie [phonetic] and that home thanks to their efforts is going to become a public foundation.  So would you stand and Eric Bauman [phonetic], a great grandson.
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It's just in terms of Jungian history, the Red Book has become a means through which so many different arenas of the Jungian world have come together, the family and the scholars and the analysts.  And so, it's had that synthesizing effect.  And to come as an analyst and see that poster in front of the Library of Congress facing Capitol Hill with Jung's Red Book on it.
[ Laughter ]
If a patient came in and told me that was a dream I would be seriously in doubt of their grandiosity and inflation.
[ Laughter ]
But I hope and trust that the energy of the Red Book which was about Jung befriending those who might be considered enemies in his psyche that some of that spirit gets across the avenue and I have heard that there is now a tunnel between Capitol Hill and the Library of Congress.
>> A passageway.
>> A passageway, so let's hope that above ground and underground, we begin to affect the American psyche.
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None of this would have been without the extraordinary devotion and dedication of Jung to his own unconscious and to his psyche, and as I say rather than experiencing what emerged as frightening and to be skewed and confronted as enemy, he did it in the spirit of befriending that which was within him.  And the devotion that he showed really is a path, a passageway for all of us to deal with the enemies within so we don't project them without.  And Jung was very lucky to have caught the attention of a man of similar devotion and dedication, Sonu Shamdasani.  Sonu was born in India and when Sonu was 18 years old, he went to India to find his guru.  And while there, he picked up a copy of Jung's Secret of the Golden Flower and then the next year started reading Memories, Dreams, Reflections and read that one finds once guru within.  And that began a very long, and as I said, dedicated career.  With Steve Martin, Jung--Sonu founded the Philemon Association and Foundation and the President Nancy Furlotti is here with us today and they have taken on the enormous task of publishing the 30,000--no, 38,000 unpublished letters of Jung's.  And another 30 volumes worth of unpublished material and I heard many asking Sonu what was he going to do now that the Red Book was completed.
[ Laughter ]
I thought I would save him having to answer and you having to ask by telling you that he has embarked on putting together a reconstruction of the formation of modern psychological disciplines and therapeutics and also a reconstruction of the formation of work of Jung based on primary archival materials.  Sonu has read every Jung document at the [inaudible] in Zurich.  He has since 1988 been prowling the stacks of the Library of Congress.  And he probably knows more about Jung than anyone else who has ever lived besides Jung.  And as the cofounder and executive editor of the Philemon Foundation he is continuing this work with their support.  And Sonu also has another life as a scholar.  He is the Philemon Professor of Jung at the Wellcome Trust Centre for the History of Medicine at the University College London.  So, it is my enormous privilege and pleasure to introduce the man without whom the Red Book would not be here and we would not be gathered in this room today, Sonu.
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>> Jung's sleeping over as he descends into hell, Jung's hell and possibly our own.  My theme this morning is hell.  And coming here this morning I think it may have been easier to get into than this symposium.
[ Laughter ]
The sign on the gates of hell in Dante's Commedia "abandon all hope all who enter here" might not be out of keeping or come to mind when individuals first begin to grapple Liber Novus, the spirit of the depths and the dark denizens that lurk within.  But all is not lost.  As a denizen of this domain nailed and chained to this book for what seemed fast approaching an eternity and closer times to turning into a shade myself.  I'd like this morning to provide some short dispatches from hell to help you on your descent.  As the Christian designation for the dwelling of the dead, depictions of hell from the outset was superimposed on classical descriptions of the underworld or Hades.  First major Christian description of hell occurs in the apocryphal apocalypse of Peter.  In this, Christ shows Peter hell in graphic detail, people hanging by their tongues, a lake of flaming mire and other full of pus, clouds of worms, people gnawing their tongues and having flaming fire in their tongues and metal detectors everywhere.
[ Laughter ]
The key trait of these in similar depictions is a notion that in hell punishments enact the nature of sins.  In his 1893 work on this text, Nekyia, Albrecht Dieterich argued that the apocalypse of Peter drew heavily on Orphic-Pythagorean traditions.  Now at the outset of Liber Novus' two descents have an exemplary role, Odysseus' descent into the underworld in the Odyssey and Christ's descent into hell.  Descents into the underworld feature in different traditions.  And as the underworld has been a main theme in [inaudible] by James Hillman, I pass all questions on the underworld to him.  First to Odysseus, Book 11 of the Odyssey depicts Odysseus' descent into the underworld to consult Tiresias.  To enter the land of the dead libations mixed with honey, milk then sweet wine and white barley were made.  They then cut the throats of sheep, probably organic in that time.
[ Laughter ]
Tiresias then gives warning and advice concerning what lies in store.  We will return to this motif but just like to put this as one of the backdrops to the terrain we'll be entering.  The second major theme is that of Christ's descent into hell, the harrowing of hell.
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The Apostles Creed states that he descended into hell, the third day he rose again from the dead.  It's very brief but what indeed took place there?  Accounts are found in the apocryphal gospels.  It was descent into hell to preach to the dead, to redeem the dead and to redeem Adam.  This formed one of, you could say, the major themes in Christian theology until a reaction sets in in the Protestant Reformation.  Swingley, for example, took the account of Christ's descent simply to indicate that he had really died.  Calvin dismissed it merely as a fable.  The fusion of classical descriptions of the underworld and the Christian hell which is [inaudible] in the most famous depictions we have of hell that is Dante's Commedia, it's Boticelli's hell.  In presenting his vision of hell and one's journey through it, Dante also presented a hermeneutics of how the text should be read.  In his famous letter to Cangrande Della Scala he differentiated two modes in which the Commedia could be read.  The first sense is that which comes from the letter.  The second is that which is signified by the letter.  The first is called the literal, the second allegorical or moral or anagogical.  And he differentiated them in this text in the following manner.  The subject of the whole work taken only from the literal standpoint is simply the status of the soul after death, taken simply.  If the work is taken allegorically, however, the subject is man either gaining or losing merits through his freedom of the will subject to the justice of being rewarded or punished.  Two modes of reading them and in the second hell featured in an allegorical sense.  As the historian D.P. Walker notes hell began to lose its hold in the 17th century.  And there were many reasons for this, the weakness of scriptural arguments for hell, the decline of the notion of retributive justice, the rise of rationalist modes of thought and problems concerning the precise location of hell interestingly conceived of as in the bowels of the Library of Congress, no, in the earth.  For example, in his art school [phonetic] and Diderot and d'Alembert's Encyclopedie, Sweden argued that the number of the damned argued against the location of hell in its traditional place inside the earth.  It was simply overcrowded.  I mean, there was no place to fit them all.  The only place big enough was the sun and this had the added virtues it provided enough heat for the eternal flames.  So even then there weren't problems of global warming, ecology.  You know, where are we going to find enough heat to burn everyone?  Alongside this notion of the problem concerning the literal hell and its location was a metaphorical use of the word hell.  The Oxford English Dictionary characterizes this as a place, state or situation of wickedness, suffering or misery; a place, state or situation of wickedness, suffering or misery.  And it notes instances of the first usage going back in the English language to Chaucer.  In Milton's Paradise Lost Satan, who was a reliable figure, states the mind is its own place and in itself can make a heaven of hell, a hell of heaven.  Satan knew a thing or two about hell.  An instance of this metaphorical use is found in a statement by Meister Eckhart cited on several occasion by Jung and you'll see why.  Therefore, do I turn back once more to myself, where do I find the deepest places deeper than hell itself?  For even from there does my wretchedness drive me, nowhere can I escape myself.  Here I'll set me down and here I will remain, the self as deeper than hell.  Within the context of the decline of the belief in a literal hell, two figures stand out.  Emanuel Swedenborg, in terms of central precision and graphic detail it's only perhaps Swedenborg's hell which comes close to matching Dante's.  Swedenborg, a Swedish scientist and Christian mystic underwent a religious crisis in the 1740s depicted in his Journal of Dreams.  In 1745, he was sitting in a tavern in London.  He heard a stranger say, don't eat so much.  He went back home and that night the stranger appeared in a dream and revealed himself as Christ and told him that he would travel through heaven and hell and talk with demons and angels and dead and show people the true faith.  He was told to note what he'd seen and heard and demonstrate the symbolic meaning of the Bible, which he duly did.  In Swedenborg's work, Heaven and Hell, heaven and hell were presented as strictly dichotomous.  All things in accord with the divine order corresponded to heaven and all contrary things to hell.  In hell, the spirits of the dead continue their lives much as they did on earth.  The main thesis of Swedenborg's work is encapsulated in this statement, "heaven and hell are from the human race."  Within each of us there were two gates.  One which is open to evil and to hell, the other to good and to heaven.  What characterize those who are currently in hell was that when they were living in the world they love the flesh, the self and the world as opposed to the soul, the love of the Lord and the love of the neighbor.  Now how did one get to hell?  Swedenborg presents its geography.  Hells were to be found under mountains, hills and rocks and their opening appeared like holes and clefts.  Some of the hells appeared to the view like the dens and caves of wild beasts in the forests.  Some were like the hollow cabins and passages that are seen in mines.  Some hells present an appearance like the ruins of houses and cities after conflagrations.  In some hells, there were nothing but brothels.  There are also deserts where all is barren and sandy.  Hence, there was a multiplicity of hells.  One didn't see them by walking by them because a light only flashed when the soul was cast into hell.  They wouldn't have some smoke coming up.  So against the common belief that there was one hell which was the same for everyone, Swedenborg noted that there was an infinite variety and diversity.  In a similar manner to Dante, Swedenborg not only presents a vision of hell but also a hermeneutics, a spiritual hermeneutics.  The Bible had two levels of meaning, a physical literal level and an inner spiritual one.  These were linked by the doctrine of correspondences.  So I'll come back later to this notion of divisionary tradition of a linkage between a vision encapsulating its own hermeneutics.  The most acute reader of Swedenborg was William Blake.  From his youth, this is a self-portrait.  From his youth, Blake had visions of angels and historical figures whom he conversed with.  And for a time indeed he joined the Swedenborgian church in London where it was established.  Blake became critical of the institutionalization of Swedenborgianism and began taking a more critical view of Swedenborg.  Around 1890, he published the work the Marriage of Heaven and Hell.  In the Marriage of Heaven and Hell, Blake articulated his critique of Swedenborg.  Indeed the very title, Marriage of Heaven and Hell encapsulated his sense that these were not two radically dichotomous and distinct locations.  Swedenborg's problem, he noted, was that he'd conversed only with angels and not with the devils who hated religion.  He'd had the wrong informants.  If you want to know what hell is like, you got to talk to a devil.  I mean it's perfectly obvious.  What Swedenborg failed to see, Blake noted in his annotations to Swedenborg, was that heaven and hell are born together.
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He articulated a notion of dynamic of oppositions.  What is basic is a series of contraries: attraction and repulsion, reason and energy, love and hate, and these oppositions were necessary for life.  What religion has called good and evil were secondary terms, derivatives which sprang from these basic series of contraries.  They were not primary.  At the same time, Blake then launched a critique of organized religion.  And of Swedenborg, he noted, he'd done much good and will do much good.  He's corrected many errors of popery and also of Luther and Calvin but there was little that was genuinely new in his work and it ultimately served orthodox belief despite its protestations to the contrary.  It was Dante, the great--Blake considered the greater figure.  And his last years he produced a series of engravings to the Commedia, watercolors.  That's Lucifer in case you didn't recognize him.  This by way a backdrop.  We turn now to Jung.  You have noticed that I have not mentioned Freud.  As Eugene Taylor and I have been arguing for decades Freud-centric legend of the genesis of Jung's psychology, namely that its origins lay first in Jung's discipleship and then divergence from Freud has led to the complete mislocation Jung in the intellectual history of the 20th century, that's the [inaudible].  It's only since October the 7th that the full extent of this has finally emerged into the public domain with the publication of Liber Novus.  I would contend that to continue to argue that psychoanalysis is the key determining context for the emergence of Jung's psychology can hence forth only be regarded as acts of willful obscurantism.  And no way does Liber Novus emerge as a sequela of Yung's divergent from Freud as it fits enough to diverge from Freud and enter this vast visionary domain.  Rather, it should be located and situated within the context of divisionary tradition.  What Liber Novus presents us with is a way back to hell.  Hell that was increasingly lost to the western imagination.  As noted between the autumn of 1913 and the summer of 1914, Jung engaged in lengthy period of self-experimentation inducing fantasies and awaking state.  Uncertain of his activities 'til the outbreak of war convinced him that his fantasies were precognitive.  He then wrote a handwritten manuscript of a thousand pages adding a second layer of lyrical elaboration, interpretation and commentary.  He then had this typed and retranscribed it into the volume we have upstairs.  This was self styled as a prophetic work.  [Foreign language], the way of what is to come.  Like Dante's vision of hell, like Swedenborg's vision, Jung's vision contains its hermeneutic within it and its layer 2 attempt to elaborate the significance of his fantasies.  Thus, like Dante, Swedenborg and Blake, Jung's endeavor was not simply to elaborate a work born of visionary experience to give it form but to elaborate hermeneutics of how it should be read.  In a critical sense then interpretative commentary is superfluous.  What is required is a wider contextualization.  This is the whole work approaching you.
[ Laughter ]
It's a new form of Jungian optician's text.
[ Laughter ]
Now in terms of the western cultural tradition, not little has been written on Jung's relation to figures in his Pantheon such as Goethe and in particular Nietzsche.  But other figures have received scant attention such as Dante, Swedenborg and Blake.  I wish to speak a little bit of this now.  The English copy of the Commedia there is a touching slip of paper inserted by the opening cantos in the line, "in the middle of the journey of our life I find myself astray in the dark wood where the straight road had been lost sight of.  This was a situation where Jung found himself.
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In a lecture, at the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology in 1935, Jung noted, a point existed about 35th year when things begin to change.  It's the first moment of the shadow side of life and of the going down to death.  It's clear that Dante found this point and those who've read Zarathustra will know that Nietzsche also discovered it.  When this turning point comes, people meet it in several ways, some turn away from it, others plunge into it and something important happens yet--to yet others from the outside.  We do not see a thing, fate does it to us.
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It's clear from this that Jung found an existential as well as a literary prototype for his activity in the Commedia.  And there are indications that Jung was reading the Commedia during this period.  On 26th December 1913 he transcribed the following lines from the Purgatorio into his black book, "And I to him.  I am one who when love breathes on me notices and in the manner that he dictates within I utter words."  Second quote, "And then in the same manner as a flame which follows the fire whatever shape it takes, the new form follows the spirit exactly."  Since with these citations give voice to Jung's undertaking to give expression to what he was endeavoring to do and the manner that he dictates within by utter words.  He was transcribing what he was hearing in a faithful manner.  And second, the new form follows the spirit exactly.  This is his fidelity to the event.  This is what he was attempting to bear witness to.  In his published scholarly writings, Jung read the Commedia as a visionary experience disguised on historical and mythical events.  Its significance for Jung as a historical document is found in his commentary in Psychological Types in 1921.  He argued that the birth of modern individualism began when the worship of women, with the worship of women, "which strengthened man's soul very considerably as a psychological factor since the worship of women meant worship of the soul."  This is nowhere more beautifully and perfectly expressed than in Dante's Divine Comedy.  So he situates it right at the birth of modern individualism, the worship of the soul.  Jung then goes on to comment on several cantos in Paradiso, Saint Bernard's prayer to the Virgin Mother.  We turn now to Swedenborg.  First to highlight the significance of Swedenborg for Jung was Eugene Taylor who's lurking somewhere there.  So address all questions on Swedenborg to him.  In his youth, Jung read through many volumes of Swedenborg.  There not directly cited Swedenborg's features critically in the backdrop to Liber Novus.  At the very beginning of the text Jung's turning away from the things ofthe world to the soul can be seen as parallel to Swedenborg's conception of heaven and hell, the turning inward, the turning away.
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That what he previously lived had been a hell, in a sense, a negation of the soul.  There are also many similarities in the manner in which Swedenborg engaged dialogue in attempt constructed by figures in the spiritual world and Jung's endeavor in Liber Novus.  The critical difference is simply one of ontology.  Jung replaces Swedenborg's spiritual realism with psychic realism, his notion of essay and anima articulated indeed in Liber Novus and then psychological types.  It's simply a shift of ontology, a different manner of reading Swedenborg.  Swedenborg's spiritual hermeneutics reading the symbolic sense of the Bible also impairs to inform the hermeneutics of layer two of Liber Novus.  Jung's relation to the works of Blake appears to be more ambivalent and oscillates.  And this appears to be connected to Jung's ambivalence concerning the notion of arch.  In 1921, Jung cited Blake's the Marriage of Heaven and Hell in Psychological Types which indicates that he read it during this period when he was working on Liber Novus.  Now a curious thing about Psychological Types is the most read chapter has been the definition of types at the end.  But it's to me quite apparent that the most important chapter of the text is Chapter 5, Type Problem in Poetry, and the reading of Psychological Types will be in a way completely transformed after reading Liber Novus and the significance of this chapter will be apparent in the sense that it's transposing or attempting to cause in the conceptual language some of the insights of Liber Novus.  At the end of this, at the end of what I consider the most important chapter of the work, Jung notes--cites Blake's statement from Heaven and Hell that there were two classes of men, the prolific and devouring.  And that religion was an attempt to reconcile the two.  Jung then noted that this summarized the whole of his previous discussion, that this says it all, quite striking.  In 1913 in a discussion of visionary works of art, Jung noted that poets turn to mythological figures to give suitable expression to their experience.  This did not mean that they were working with secondhand material but it was the only way to give form to imageless primordial experience.  So, one starts with imageless primordial experience, authentic visionary experience, which then poets use mythological and historical figures to give form to.  They've derived the figures from somewhere but that does not mean that the visions themselves are derived from elsewhere.  An important point to note in discussions of Liber Novus.  Jung then noted Dante [inaudible] experience in all the imagery of heaven, and purgatory and hell.  Blake presses into a service the phantasmagoric world of India, the Old Testament and the Apocalypse.  So in his view here, Blake's work contained visions from the collective unconscious clothed in mythological language.  In 1939, in Jung's introduction to Suzuki's work on Zen Buddhism Jung noted the glimmerings of a breakthrough of total experience in the west where to be found in Goethe's Faust and Nietzsche's Zarathustra, again the usual suspects from Jung's Pantheon.  Although tucked away in a footnote we find "in this connection, I must also mention the English mystic William Blake."  In this connection, he cannot raise him to the levels of Goethe and Nietzsche.  In 1944, in psychology and alchemy, Jung featured two images by Blake and one of his illustrations to Dante.  The legend in Psychology and Alchemy describes this as the soul as a guide showing the way.  It's actually a revealing slip.  It's actually Dante and Virgil ascending the mountain of purgatory.  In a 1948 letter, he noted, I find Blake a tantalizing study since he has compiled about half of undigested knowledge in his fantasies.  According to my idea, they are an artistic production brought in authentic representation of unconscious processes.  Here again, you find instances of this oscillation.  It seems to me as though he's indicating this oscillation concerns Jung's own ambivalence concerning his own work, was Liber Novus a work of art?  The notion of the dynamic interplay of contraries central to Blake's Heaven and Hell is a key theme in Jung's Liber Novus though there's no evidence to suggest that he derived this idea from Blake.  Rather, it's indicative of what Jung may have found tantalizing in the reading and study of Blake.  Around 1910 Jung went to an Australian trip with his friends Albert Ure [phonetic] and Andreas Visher [phonetic] during which Ure wrote out chap--read out chapters from the Odyssey dealing with Circe and the Nekyia.  Jung noted that shortly afterwards he like Odysseus was presented by faith with a Nekyia that descends into the dark Hades.  It is then Jung's figuration of the self-experimentation, the descents into the underworld.  Let's now trace, briefly trace this motif.  On the 21st December of 1913 in his fantasy at the outset of his journey in which he first encountered the biblical figures of Salome and Elijah, Jung gazes into a stone and catch sight of Odysseus and his journey on the high seas, one of the first figures that he encounters.  After his interchange with Salome and Elijah, he looks again into this stone thinking again of Odysseus and how he passed the rocky islands of the Sirens and wonders if he should do so or not.  He is there imagining himself in the same situation.  In his commentary in the layer two hermeneutics on this passage you can note that the image indicated the lengthy wanderings lay ahead of him.  Odysseus had gone astray when he played his trick at Troy.  Then Jung notes Odysseus would not have become what he was without his odyssey.  So it's the question of the necessity of the wondering, of the erring in terms of his becoming.  In handwritten drafts t the second book of Liber Novus, Liber Secundus, Jung subtitled Liber Secundus the Adventures of the Odyssey.  In the corrected draft this is retitled the Great Odyssey.  And finally, Jung suggested the line from the Odyssey happily escaped from the jaws of death be used as a motto of [inaudible] biography of him Memories, Dreams, Reflections misleadingly referred to as his autobiography.  We come now to the descent into hell.  It was a few weeks earlier on December 12th that he engaged in his first visual fantasy.  In 1925, in a seminar he recalled, I devised such a boring method by fantasizing that I was digging a hole.  The fantasy then begins.  I see a gray rock along which I sink into great depths.  Only this is a sensible procedure for anyone versed in Swedenborg, is digging a hole in the rocks that is where hell is to be found.  Fantasy that ensues Jung saw a killed figure float by on the stream and serpents who veiled the sun from which stream of blood flowed.  In 1914, as noted, Jung felt these visions, these fantasies were precognitive and then he titles this chapter Descent into Hell in the Future.  In this fantasy he had descended into hell and the bloodshed that he'd saw depicted what was happening in Europe.  "As the darkness seized the world, a terrible war rose and the darkness destroyed the light of the world since it was incomprehensible to the darkness and good for nothing anymore.  And so we had to taste hell.  Hell was now indeed let loose.  It was the earth, the bloodshed and the slaughter of the Great War.  The world had gone literally to hell.  But critically, in Jung's account in Liber Novus this was not senseless but meaningful for the further development of mankind.  I like to indicate further depictions of Jung's imagination of hell in Liber Novus.  On 12th January he found himself in a gloomy volt with a tangle of human bodies.  He realized then that he'd reached the underworld or hell.  On 18th January 1914 after he had been interred to in the insane asylum that James Billington mentioned, he found himself in a steamer, his neighbor in the ward, a fool who declared himself to be Nietzsche and Christ told him simply that they were in hell.  On 2nd February 1914 his serpent soul tells him that they had arrived in hell.  He saw a hanged man who'd poisoned his parents and his wife.  The man tells him that he'd done this to honor God so that they could escape the wretchedness of life for state of eternal blessedness.  In the fantasy of 28th December 1913 he found himself in a castle in the forest where he met an old scholar.  He is led to a room to sleep and imagines that the scholar has locked up his daughter were seen to be a hackneyed theme for a romantic novel.  She then literally appeared before him.  And Jung notes, "I am truly in hell, the worst awakening after death, to be resurrected in a lending library."  I note that the Library of Congress is not a lending library, I think, but perhaps for some members of Congress.  Have I held the men of my time in its haste in such contempt that I must live in hell and write out the novels that I have already spat on long ago?  Does the lower of half of average human taste also claim holiness and invulnerability so we might not say any bad word about it without having to atone for the sin in hell?  So the canonical notion of the fitting punishment in hell is articulated here.  He despised such novels.  He finds himself condemned to literally be in one, forced to live them out.  The contemporary equivalent would no doubt be finding his work featured in a New York Times article or a TV Cop show.  Reflecting on this episode, Jung noted, your hell is made up of all the things that you always ejected from your sanctuary with the curse and a kick of the foot.  What was required then was to give due attention to what led one to contempt and rage.  And through accepting this, through accepting what one had rejected, one redeemed one's own other into life.  Hence, the notion of going to hell is seen as essential in affirming fullness of one's existence and indeed of life itself.  Life affirmation required an affirmation, and an acceptance of hell.  Hell epitomizes a state that Jung found himself in.  A moment of collapse of all that he cherished, all that he had striven for, all that he'd aspired to and hold dear.  Transvaluation of all his values and he comments as follows.  What do you think of the essence of hell?  Hell is when the depths come to you with all that you are no longer--which you--I'll start again.  What do you think of the essence of hell?  Hell is when the depths come to you with all that you no longer are or are not yet capable of.  Hell is when you can no longer attain what you could attain.  Hell is when you must think and feel and do everything that you know you do not want.  Hell is when you know that you're having to is also a wanting to.  And that you yourself are responsible for it.  Hell is when you know that everything serious that you've planned with yourself is also laughable.  That everything fine is also brutal.  That everything good is also bad.  That everything high is also low.  That everything pleasant is also shameful.  A complete moment of reversal, the Eckhartian sense of the return to one's self as deeper than hell itself or indeed the deepest hell.  And Jung notes but the deepest hell is when you realize that hell is also no hell but a cheerful heaven.  Not a heaven in itself but in this respect a heaven and in that respect a hell.  This is indeed what Blake would have called the marriage of heaven and hell.  What then does one do when one finds one's self in hell in life?  Jung found a prototype in Christ's descent into hell, the harrowing of hell.  One of the key themes in Liber Novus is that of the invitation of Christ.  How was this to be understood, how was this to be lived.  In reflecting upon this Jung understood it not on a literal level but in this deeper sense of living one's life as fully as Christ lived his.  In attempting to do this he has experienced something akin to Christ's descent into hell.  "No one knows what happened during the three days Christ was in hell.  I have experienced it.  The men of yore said that he had preached there to the deceased.  What they say is true, but do you know how this happened?  It was folly and monkey business, an atrocious hell's masquerade of the holiest mysteries.  How else could Christ have saved his Antichrist?  Read the unknown books of the ancients, and you will learn much from them.  Notice that Christ did not remain in hell, but rose to the heights in the beyond.  In Jung's understanding, Christ's journey to hell was necessary.  Without this he would not have been able to ascend to heaven.  In Jung's account to Liber Novus, Christ had to become his antichrist, his underworldly brother.  He had to become hell himself.  Christ's task of the redemption, the salvation of the dead is then taken up in what I call Jung's theology of the dead in Liber Novus.  To site one of the statements from the draft, "Not one title of Christian law is abrogated but instead we are adding a new one accepting the laments of the dead."  In Jung's theology of the dead, redemption does not take the form of you should be saving the souls of the dead but of taking on their legacy answering their unanswered questions.  After his work Liber Novus, in his published scholarly writings, Jung attempted to translate some of the insights of Liber Novus to a language acceptable to medical scientific audience.  One aspect of this undertaking was a psychological formulation and interpretation of Christ's descent into hell.  In 1937, in his Terry Lectures at Yale Jung noted, "three days descent into hell during death describes the sinking of a vanished value into the unconscious whereby conquering the power of darkness establishes a new order and rises up to heaven again that has attained supreme clarity of consciousness."  I'll read this again, you hear the change in language.  The three days descent into hell during death describes the sinking of the vanished value into the unconscious whereby conquering the power of darkness it establishes a new order then rises up to heaven again.  That is, pertains supreme clarity of consciousness.  In 1952, in Aion he noted, "The scope of the integration is suggested by the descensus ad infernos, the descent of Christ's soul to heaven--to hell.
^M01:00:05
Its work of redemption also encompasses the dead.  The psychological equivalent of this forms the integration of the collective unconscious which represents an essential part of the individuation process."  Again, I repeat.  The scope of the integration is suggested by the descensus ad infernos, the descent of Christ's soul to hell.  Its work of redemption also encompasses the dead.  The psychological equivalent of this forms the integration of the collective unconscious which represents an essential part of the individuation process.  Here we find Christ's descent to hell interpreted as the individualization process and the inspiration of the collective unconscious, the central theme in Jung's later work but we must pause here, which language, which articulation is primary?  First person voice in articulation in Liber Novus or its subsequent reformulation decades later and the psychological concepts of the collected works.  Relevant here are some comments that Jung made from the discussion of none other than Swedenborg, see this talk does tie in some loose manner, at a discussion psychological club in the 1950s.  I quote.  There are also visions whose pathological character can be recognized not from their form but from their effects.  Or also that they subsequently require continual working.  For instance, the Nicholas van Defleur [phonetic].  He had a terrible vision and how to protect himself from it, reinterpretation of the vision in the image of the Holy Trinity.  Same with Swedenborg, he went up into this [inaudible] to protect himself against the vision.  Since this was dangerous for him he hitched himself to the concepts.  One must also give the patient something with which he can hold on to himself which he can grasp equals concepts.  The visions of Swedenborg are something terribly important.  Also with him a danger is shown to he plunged into the abyss.  Because of that he had to hold on to concepts.  These formed a true salvation for many men.  A very nuance statement, Jung was saying that Swedenborg to protect himself formed concepts.  But Jung is not merely being critical and indicating for many men concepts was all they have to hold onto to be able to withstand the experiences in question.  Now this raises the question whether Jung's later conceptual system which in some of his followers has not lacked for octrine [inaudible] forms such a safety net or guard rail vital for some, no doubt, for protection which may block access to very experiences in question.  Taking this further, does Jung's significance lie in his conceptual formulations, the individualization, the collective unconscious, the integration of collective unconscious, archetypes and so forth or rather does it, does it in the terms of his own visionary experience lie in the recovery of hell as made accessible through individual fantasy, through individual vision and enabling a new route to hell and back.  If as Jung claimed Dante and Blake clothed visionary experience in mythological forms, could we not pose the question that Jung in turn attempted to clothe visionary experience in conceptual psychological forms?  If so, the power and significance of his work does not reside in his concepts which are familiar to us but in the visionary experience which was at the back of them.  Publication of Liber Novus then finally enables one to reconsider Jung's significance in wholly new yet quintessentially ancient manner as recovering the road to hell.  Thank you.
^M01:04:45
[ Applause ]
[ Noise ]
^M01:04:51
>> Sonu, thank you.  For 13 years, Sonu carried his knowledge of the Red Book in his head keeping it confidential in all that time.  And he had the good fortune to meet Jim Maris at the library.  No, there are so many Jim's, at W.W. Norton who was the editor, unfortunately he's not here today.  And Norton originally planned a publication of 5,000 volumes.  They thought they might sell between 1,500 and 2,000.  And now the book has gone through its sixth printing with 45,000 volumes sold in English, 10,000 in German, a Portuguese edition coming out in the fall and many more languages will be added to the versions of the Red Book.  So that book is going to be on the shelves of many lending library, sorry Jung.  But it's again another example of how an idea and an imagination can bring forth such a phenomenon so, thank you so much.  I know from Sonu that one of his intentions was to make this material available to those who had toiled in the tradition of Jung for many years and his feeling that people who have devoted their lives to this enterprise really deserve to have access to this material and no one deserved it more than James Hillman who is our next speaker.  James is probably the most eminent of all Jungian analyst scholars and the founder of archetypal psychology.  He was born in this country and attended Sorbonne in Paris and graduated from Trinity College, Dublin.  He received his PhD from the University of Zurich and he has also received his analyst diplomat from the Jung Institute there.  He was the director of studies at that institute until 1969.  And that was the year that we arrived in Zurich and met James Hillman.  He then founded Spring House and Spring Publications.  And have certainly more than 15 volumes in his name, Re-Visioning Psychology, The Soul's Code, In Search of Character and Calling and many other volumes.  And right now a 10-volume uniform edition of archetypal psychology is being produced.  And it's collecting many of his works and the sixth one which is alchemical psychology is now in press.  And I believe it will be out in the fall.  Others, [inaudible] I believe have already been published.  So the uniform edition of archetypal psychology will be available.  And meanwhile here is the man in whose head it all exists, James Hillman.
^M01:08:22
[ Applause ]
^M01:08:27
>> Thank you very much Beverly and thank you, Sonu.  The title that I gave my thoughts this morning is Jung and the Profoundly Personal.  And so, it seemed probably a good move in old age to make it profoundly personal.  Not only about Jung's profoundly personal but maybe something from my own past.  But first I want to quote something from Auden, Wystan Auden, the poet.  We are lived by powers we pretend to understand.  And that's the whole thing.  And the work that Sonu has been doing, the work that Jung did, what that book is and what Jung spent his life trying to write and make clear is the pretending to understand, trying to understand the powers.  And we are always up against the enormous limitations of the mind and of language in attempting to understand the powers that are leaving us and once we enter the realization that we are being lived.  We are not the soul agents.  The ego is a myth, a figure I've never met one anywhere, except the words somewhere on all there.  That all of that is attempts to understand the powers.  And this changes the way, the way one imagines what's going on in life and what happens in relationships, what happens in therapy, what happens everywhere else.  We are being lived by powers we pretend to understand.
^M01:10:49
Of course, I never understood this, still don't fully but feel it.  And this is June 19, 2010.  In June 1961 I was then 35 and I was allowed to go out to Jung's house and pay homage to Jung's body.  He was in a separate room and some of us went out to Kusnacht from Zurich.  I remember carrying a lily.  One of those huge lilies with white, you know those exquisite things that you see imaged in psychology and alchemy.  And being received beautifully by Frau  Lily Jung, Frau Annie [phonetic], Frau Gret Bauman [phonetic] and we were sat on the sofa sometimes, different people coming and going and I looked at photographs from the old days and we were beautifully received at this time of mourning.  So it was probably the second or third day, I don't know exactly.  And so I had my moment in the room with the body and paid homage, had my lily, and the message, the meaning that I was given was get out or get on or gets over, something like that and do my work.  Now after that, interesting that lily because I remember Yolande Jacobi, a member of that group at that time brought red roses.  I brought the anima image of the lily.  You know, I was the young man of 35 who was anima possessed, possessed by the idea of the soul, the softness, the adulation, all of those virtues that the lily was.  But the message was get out, get on, get over and do my work.  And that's--that was like [inaudible].  So then for years and years and years and years, it seems to me, I was doing the work.  And at the same time I was undoing the work.  And I was living the tension that Sonu Shamdasani spoke of last night, the tension between the public and the private.  Now I have reached that or resolved that tension for a moment by telling that story.  By telling a story that is public or telling a story in public that is intimately private.  And Jung's the Red Book is a book of deep, deep intimate privateness.  So of course there's this tension, what part is public, what part is private, how far do you go with this or with that?  Of course, in late life it's resolved that the whole business becomes what's public and what's private anyway but, and what difference does it really make.
[ Laughter ]
We are all scandals.
^M01:14:43
[ Laughter ]
[ Applause ]
^M01:14:53
But each differently, of course.
[ Laughter ]
So that tension of doing and undoing, the tension between undoing the language that Sonu has been speaking about, these words that obsess our attempt to understand ego, unconscious, this kind of type and that kind of type.  These rational words that are left over from psychology of other periods, psychology of other dimensions, psychologies of other psychologists.  Jung's own language was not that.  That's what the Red Book when it came out was like an enormous turn for me.  A revelation that my undoing all these years of trying to work through and resist this language of opposites.  You use the word contraries.  Contraries are not opposites, they're necessary to each other.  They're correlative, coexistent.  Don't have one without the other.  Black and white aren't opposites.  They are only opposites if your mind has to think in an Aristotelian way and put them into the category of opposites, otherwise, you can have all sorts of whiteness without thinking about black and you can have all sorts of blackness without any kind of necessary opposition.  There are no white berries.  There is no white coal.  There's no, I mean, these are necessary, these are mistakes in thinking.  And it was that struggle all along that has occupied me but now with the Red Book, there is the revelation.  The revelation that the language, their language of psychology is imagistic, is poetic.  It is pre-dialectic, prelogical.  Jung writes of those sentences that seemed sometimes to be forgotten in the psychological types which you mentioned as being so crucial and it's the book that I think, that's the first book that came out after the beginnings of the experienced with Liber Novus.  Am I right about that, 1921, I think, yeah.  He says, "Image is not a psychic reflection of an external object.  It's not because you saw something and then you have an image of it, but a concept of derived from poetic usage."  Poetic usage is the beginning of the right language for psychology if we're talking about the powers that have us, a fantasy image and they appear in space and as voice but are not pathological as such.  He writes--and I'll give you even the paragraph numbers.  Paragraph 722 in Psychological Types, "Imagination is the reproductive or creative activity of the mind in general."  What does the mind do?  It doesn't invent words like ego.  It invents imaginative forms, figures, melodies, poetic phrases, moments of insight, intuitions, formula.  Imagination is the reproductive or creative activity of the mind in general.  Fantasy as imaginative activity is the direct expression of psychic life.  What does the psyche do naturally as a chicken naturally lays an egg, the human psyche fantasizes.  That's its primary activity.  Our dreams are prior to our thinking.  See, this is a way of looking at the world that seems to me to have been realized in Jung's life in the Red Book that is the--the concession of the mind that goes back to Aristotle but gets reinforced particular from Descartes onward, the rational mind, the mind that was dominating that 18th century in which Blake and Swedenborg were contraries.
^M01:20:07
That that mind doesn't do the job and that psychology that arises from that mind can't do the job.  So of course everyone's in therapy because they're using the wrong mind to deal with the psyche.  And the therapists are using the wrong mind in dealing with the psyches who are using the wrong mind.  The mind is creating images, fantasies and that these are living realities that can speak to us.  They come figured at times, not only as I say also a melody is a psychic image.  Fantasy as imaginative activity is the direct expression of psychic life, and they are identical with again Jung's quote with the flow of psychic energy.  So our energy, our emotional vitality, whichever way it goes, down or up, inward or outward, the psychic energy is actually only one aspect, the other aspect of the fantasy figures and forms.  So if you want to get hold of your emotions or know what emotion or feel yourself emote, are trapped by an emotion, you try to find the image of that emotion which tells you much more about the emotion than simply suffering the emotion itself.  It isn't to get out of the emotion, it is to find its form, to find its fantasy to elaborate it further, identical with the flow of psychic energy.  Even more he says in Psychological Types, paragraph 78 this one, "Psyche creates reality everyday.  The only expression I can use for this activity is fantasy."  Wow.  Psyche creates reality everyday.  We think there is psychic inner world and then there is reality.  Watch out, don't do that.
[ Laughter ]
Psychic reality and then reality, hard reality which is always hard, tough, real, cold and so on.  Well, that reality is a fantasy also.  And some may not recognize this a fantasy and so we call it reality.  Whatever we call reality is a fantasy that has got stubborn and blocked and become obscured to the fact of its--of the flow of psychic energy in it.  This opens the whole business.  This opens the soul to living, to living so that as a line from Saroyan, one of his plays, two people meet and one says to the other, what's the fantasy now, Kitty Duval?  That's the relationship.  What's the fantasy now?  Not what happened to you when you were 4.  That's a fantasy too, what happened to you when you were 4.
[ Laughter ]
^M01:23:49
[ Pause ]
^M01:23:55
Now this, what I'm trying to elaborate is also that it is profoundly personal.  We think the profoundly personal is what happened to us when we were 4.  The wounds we've suffered, the hopes that were dashed, the relationships that we have or had, the intimacies, the memories, that this is the profoundly personal.  But these are the things that happened to everybody.  Everyone has been jilted.  Everyone has been disappointed.  Everyone has filled with enthusiasm.  These are the profoundly collective experiences.  The profoundly personal is the engagement with one's own demons or the visit to hell.  And the encounter with the figures that Jung had, this is the most intimate, deep, profound, unexpected, completely surprising individualized part of life.  In other words, the encounter with one's own soul and the Red Book begins with that.  Jung felt he had lost his soul.  It was now his job to find it or to find out where it was or what had happened.  This is the profoundly personal.  Now this changes a lot because the entire realm of psychotherapy for a hundred years has been going down the avenue of the profoundly personal is my personal life, my personal memories, my personal childhood, my personal experiences, my personal--the subjectivism of my, what Freud called the [inaudible] or the personal unconscious or the repressed.  But there is something else that is not collective in that way and not collected let's say that is not common to us all but is--has some deep individual of faithful aspect.  And this is what Jung most engaged with as I read the Red Book, he was engaged with uncovering what are in the depths of the soul that was given to him and the faith that was given to him.  Well, that changes what's important in your life.  That changes that these things you're trying to work out in regard to your personal life are really being lived by power as we're trying to understand.  And it takes a kind of courageous fiat mihi, let it done to me, to drop into that.  Again, in profoundly personal in my own case, when I got to Zurich in 1953, the terrors of what lurked that I didn't understand or was afraid of seem to me to be down below.  Now I hadn't read about Jung's descent through the hole of [inaudible], but I had that feeling that there were things that were going to come up and get me.  And I took to making little paintings of what might be down there, because this was encouraged by my analyst that seemed to be the way you did things.  And I recall the descent for in my--in my moment, was into water.  I went down deep into the bottom of the sea and there were a lot of creatures there that were going to grab me and hold me and do things and so on.  And I had the experience that I could breathe underwater, and that was a revelation.  Whatever a revelation is, that seemed a revelation that I could actually stay in this realm and do things, talk, ask questions, move around, explore, and breathe underwater.  It was that literal and that concrete and that vivid, the being underwater, and yet at the same time, the imagination, the fantasy made it possible to breathe.  Now this is just one example of hundreds of examples of this kind of work that Jung invented.  Invented because I say he invented it for modern psychology.  People have been doing exploratory journeys forever.  That's not--and they record it in all kinds of ways, in epics, in Dante's work, in Blake's work and all the way back, all sorts of people have done Hildegard von Bingen and so on and so forth.  That's not the point.  The point is that Jung did something different with it.  He devised this partly as a way, as a method, as something that can be recorded carefully and observed with a phenomenological mind.
^M01:30:07
And I say a phenomenological mind rather than an empirical mind because he was not doing experiment only in the sense of let's try this and see what happens.  He was allowing the phenomena to speak.  And there's a difference between empiricism and phenomenology here.  Because the empiricist is also doing something with what is.  And the phenomenologist is first of all allowing the phenomenon to have it say and all thoughts about it, what it should be, how it should work, all the historical information is bracketed out, and you're left with simply the way the phenomenon appears.  And Jung let the phenomena speak.  Now, we need to know here how difficult it is to let them speak.  In our culture, we must remember that--let me just--'cause I do have a note actually.  I think it's Mark, the biblical Mark and you'll be able to tell me.  Jesus doesn't let the--yeah, Mark 1:34, "Jesus suffered not the devils to speak."  Now, do you realize by letting the demon speak, by letting the voices speak, Jung was making a move of demonology, as Karl Jaspers have said, and he was opening, he was immediately being heretical as his pastor said at his funeral, that he was a heretic.
[ Laughter ]
And a very important because the heretics belong within the church, they're not simply heretics.  They have as very important role and so he let the demon speak.  Mark 1:34 says, "Jesus suffered not the devils to speak.  Get thee behind me, Satan.  Harrow hell.  Death where is thy sting?"  That opening produced a radical move in the relation of Jung to Christianity and the voice says at times in the Red Book, the Christianity that he has and is not--Sonu will be able to tell me those passages where the Christianity in the--that Jung thought he was a Christian is not the Christianity that he is discovering in the book.  Does that more or less--so that he says, and you can see why because he is allowing other voices, the multitude of voices to speak and to be figured, to be personified, to have as reality as other figures.  In the basic fundamental Christian way of looking at it, there is only one voice that can speak to you and that must be Jesus' voice, so all the others are out of the game.  So the images are also voices and they bring some sort of message from the dead and that was one of the things I'd love to talk more with you, Sonu, about is who are the dead?  Who are the dead in Jung's book?  Are they his personal ancestors?  Are they the dead of Jerusalem from the 7 sermons?  Who are the dead?  What is the message of the dead and what is it in America, what is it in our culture that has so much trouble with the dead?  So difficulty, our President can't even go to the coffins of the dead, our former president.  That we have this tremendous wall between living and death so that at any cost we must keep the living alive because what's on the other side.  No sense, no sense of the permeability of life and death, of the flow of the others, of the voices of the figures, of the powers into our life everyday, of our relation to those on the other side who in the old days used to say, welcome, to be welcomed by the ancestors when you die.  Received instead is something this great unknown and you die alone and all these horrors are imagined because there is no sense of the ancestors.  And of course our ancestors are the American-Indians who lived in this soil.  So perhaps our dead, we are cut from the dead by what we have buried.  And to go to the dead would bring up all sorts of things we don't want to bring up.  But it's a question that seems to me the dead are the daily encounter with everything that has been left out, buried, burned, drowned, forgotten on purpose and continues to send wafts of little messages through all sorts of small intuitions, hunches, hints, warnings, omens, the little feelings in the stomach that say, "No, I don't think I'll do that.  I'm not going to pick up the phone on that one.  I'm--let that one go."  Those little cautions and warning, who sends those?  Who's protecting us everyday about not doing this or doing that?  Remember Socrates said that it--he was never told by his daemon what to do.  He was only cautioned what not to do.  Where does that fit, what not to do?  The moment of holding off, holding back, not, the moment of not, are those the dead keeping us safe, watching out for us?  Today, this book is so enormously--how many thousand could I have those figures again?  What were they?
>> 46,000 in English.
>> 46,000 in English, 10,000--
>> And more languages coming.
>> And more languages coming, imagine--
>> Another printing.
>> And another printing.  We're in the 6th imagine, on the best seller list, imagine.  Imagine.  It was last week on Law & Order:  Criminal Intent [laughter] if you happen to see.  Was that it--what it's called, criminal intent?  If you happen to have seen it, the Red Book was displayed itself and it was part of a cult.
[ Laughter ]
It was inspiring some--inspiring some, I don't know whether they were vampires or they were--
[ Laughter ]
[ Inaudible Remark ]
Now, of course it's been review--you know, we've had meetings that like this in New York and Los Angeles and the New York Times and so on and so forth.  What is its importance in our culture at this moment?  Is what I have been saying about the dead, about the voices, about letting the demon speak, about the deep polytheistic background that has been forgotten, about the depths of the profundity of one's personal life and its importance, and the individual search for not for meaning but for image--for images.  Meanings don't carry you through but the images are your companions.  You can have all the slogans in the world and explanations and understandings, but what carries you through are the voices and figures you live with and can talk with.  Is that what's missing?  Is that what they called--it's so radically different from anything else in psychology, so radically different from today's cultural [inaudible] of technology, economics, reason, information.  You know, when the book first--I don't know if I'm going on too long.  Am I--
[ Inaudible Remark ]
^M01:39:52
Okay.  When the book--when it was being written around 1915, let's say just that period.  At that time, current in the mind was Blavatsky [phonetic], serialism, parapsychology and worked on by leading intellects like William James and many others in England, Dadaism, German Expressionism, joys.  They were compatible and comparable experiments in other areas.  In our time, this book is absolutely freakish because we have lived--we live in such a narrow technical, rational, explanatory, causal way of thinking.  We have shrunk our mindset tremendously since the beginning of the century when this book was not as strange, in my mind, would not have been a strange.  After all, Jung wrote his doctoral dissertation in the year--1900 on occult phenomena for a medical degree.  Think of that in today's medicine.
[ Laughter ]
Today's medicine is packed with occult phenomenon.
[ Laughter ]
But--so it's--the book is sort of a necessity.  The book is a necessity in our time and it is recognized on a deep level of the collective psyche.  Thank you very much.
^M01:41:31
[ Applause ]
^M01:41:48
>> Thank you so much, James.  There is another James that I would like to thank and he's just left the room but I'm going to thank him anyway at this point.  One of the groups of the dead that Jung met as James Billington described to us where the Anabaptists in the Red Book and James Hudson who has been the marvelous scholar and gentleman and head of the manuscripts division of the Library of Congress is a historian and one of his specialties has been the Anabaptists in terms of the history of the church.  And working with him has been such a pleasure in the formation of this program.  And he told me that he found out that the Swiss Anabaptists were tied in sacks by Zwingli in 1525, and Zwingli and his friends drown them in the lake of Zurich not far from [inaudible].  So that when Jung met the ghost of the Anabaptist, they were a group of dead that were emerging out of the waters, so.
[ Laughter ]
Another wonderful back story.  And now it's my great pleasure to introduce my friend and colleague from New York, Ann Belford Ulanov and has been a strong womanly voice in Jungian studies for many decades.  She holds the Christiane Brooks Johnson Memorial Chair established in memory of her student at New York's Union Theological Seminary, where she's a professor of psychiatry and religion.  And she's also a Jungian analyst in private practice in Manhattan.  And has many, many books to her credit, certainly 9 that I know of, and she is always at work.  She has published many books of her own and she published several with her husband, the late Barry Ulanov.  Her two recent titles are Spirit in Jung, The Unshuttered Heart: Opening To Aliveness and Deadness in the Self.  So I'm so grateful that Ann is here with us today.  Yes.
^M01:44:26
[ Applause ]
^M01:44:35
>> Thank you.  Thank you.  In the Red Book, Jung encounters Elijah and Salome who say to him, "We are real and not symbols."  And they expressed the tone of the whole volume.  What the guide Philemon conveys, psychic reality exists, it's there.  It's subjective and addresses Jung in a series of images, figures, tasks.  And though later, Jung reflects that these figures are personifications of unconscious thoughts.  When he actually meets them, they are real experiences and evoke in him dread, loathing, confusion.  He describes Salome as blood thirsty horror exclaiming, "I fear her."  He understood Salome to personify his feeling which he had scorned as grossly inferior to his thinking, personified by Elijah.  And even later, when Salome is redeemed into loving and offers her love to Jung, he says to her, "You are like the serpent who coiled around me and pressed out my blood."  And yet at the end of his encounters, he learns from Philemon that only through voluntary devotion to love do I arrive at my truest and innermost self.  From this one of countless examples, we get a sense of what it is to read the Red Book.  We plunge in down where encounters with the unconscious call us out, forcing us to tasks that if we avoid, we miss the boat.  In painting 55, we see what Jung saw that we all have a boat riding on the unconscious psyche under which the serpent, the dragon-fish, the monster Apophis swims, threatening to swallow the sun of consciousness.  Jung was called to these encounters, forced by his own complexes that when faced yielded his vocation.  He said, "In my 40th year of life, I had achieved everything that I had wished for myself."  But he had lost his soul and had to go find it.  With fright, he asks his soul.  "Into what mist and darkness does your path lead?  I limp after you on crutches of understanding.  I follow but it terrifies me."  And Jung recognizes, "This life is the way, the long sought-after way to the unfathomable divine.  Thus pairing psyche with soul to whom he says, 'your meaning is a supreme meaning, and your steps are the steps of a God.'"  Jung felt carried in the fearsome territory beyond what Christ taught.  The soul tells him, "If you marry that ordered to the chaos, you produce the divine child, the supreme meaning, beyond meaning and meaninglessness."  Christ taught God is love, but you should know that love is also terrible.  Christ overcomes the temptation of the devil but not the temptation of God to good and reason.  Identification then with what we call the good is not going to work anymore.  For the soul tells him, nothing will deliver you from disorder and meaninglessness since this is the other half of the world."  In response Jung says, "I swayed between fear, defiance, and nausea."  Jung sees that as Christ knew that he was the way, the truth and the life, I know that chaos must come over men.  For him who has seen the chaos, he knows that bottom sways.  For he has seen the order and disorder of the endless, in short, the soul tells him, life has no rules, that is its mystery.  We enter then a world of encounters which Jung insistently claims as his own, saying, "Don't ape me.  You have your own mysteries.  Go there, find them."
^M01:50:10
Jung is encountered by many figures.  His meetings lead him to take leave of "science that clever knower" that imprisons the soul "in a lightless cell."  To find another kind of knowing pertaining to the child God, he comes to serve and to paradoxical over intellectual intelligence.  The child God who is "beyond being split between opposites, whose simple will we cannot learn for it can only become in you, brings an attitude without preconceptions of inexhaustible freshness."  And from this uniting of opposites rise--arises a third, "the supreme meaning, the symbol, passing over into a new creation."  Here, the symbol takes on incarnate life, it's not hanging in the air but acts as a solid bridge into daily life, for as Jung writes, "the divine wants to live with me."  Further, this new meaning changes our grasp of how we understand.  "The spirit of the depths took my understanding and all my knowledge and place them at the service of the paradoxical, the melting together of sense and nonsense which produces the supreme meaning, the God yet to come."  Jung for example encounters the uniting of below and above, the monstrous and devoted, the collective and individual, the divine and the human.  And paradox also changes our relation to what we know.  He no longer identifies with it but says, I do not myself become the supreme meaning, but the symbol becomes in me that it has its substance and I have mine.  And even further, Jung distinguishes God and the image of God saying, "It is not the coming God himself but the image which appears in the supreme meaning."  Chaos does unites with order and the God image we perceive and form on which we depend can always be destroyed.  How does Jung get her to these thoughts?  Only by going through hell which he says means to become hell one self.  And he describes it as full of frightful noise, shrieking voices where he discovers the thousand serpents that want to devour the son are also in me.  I myself am the murdered and the murderer, the sacrificer and the sacrificed, the upwelling of blood streams out of me.  From refusals of such consciousness flow collective depredations, manifest then in World War I.  Manifest now across our globe in the countless cruelties we do to each other.  Jung says, men fall on their brothers with mighty weapons and bloody acts, when they do not know that their brother is themselves.  One way or another, the sacrifice will be made.  Unconsciously, in barbarism against each other and against the earth as Philemon asks, do men atone for the ox with the velvet eyes?  Or do penance for the shiny ore?  Your blood thirsty tiger growls softly, while you, conscious only of your goodness, offer your human hand to me in greeting.  And suddenly I felt a cruel hammer blow, struck a nail into my temple.  What then is the sacrifice?  To severe our identification with what he calls our formations, such as the image of God or what we hold supreme for Jung at that time science, or what we experience as our ruling principle for Jung, his thinking.  The expansion of our subjectivity accompanies our opening to reality that lies beyond our images of its center.  The ruling principle in each of us is the hero who must be slain.  He writes, "The heroic in you is the fact that you are ruled by the thought that this or that is good, the goal.  Consequently, you sin against incapacity but incapacity exists, no one should deny it or shout it down."  When we succeed, "in making a god," our whole force has entered into this design.  We desire to rise with the divine sun and become part of its magnificence.  But then we are no more than hollow forms.  He continues, for our formation causes many good persons to bleed to death.  When we lose our force to our formation, we try with unconscious cunning and power, demandingly to force others into following the God.  By clinging to our formation, we push away anything opposite and left unvalued this incapacity, this inferior part does not develop but degrades into monstrous form.  But Jung finds that "Salvation comes to you from the discarded.  Your sun will arise from the swamps.  And even more shocking, but the lowest in you is also the eye of evil that stares at you coldly and sucks your light down into the dark abyss."  We need the help of evil to dissolve our formations for we become bad in our goodness and do not know it.  Hence, we must recognize "our complicity in the act of evil, for evil has to be accepted and must have a share in our life."  This jarring encounter with his lowest what he later calls the shadow, issues in Jung haranguing against, "his inordinate ambition.  You don't work for humanity, you work for self interest, he accuses.  You consume yourself in rage and speak in cold daggers.  What is concealed in you I will drag into light.  You should be a vessel of life, so kill your idols.  Yet, Jung also harangues his soul who has brought him to these realizations, accusing her of stealing "the gold", the sparkling light of the jewel and absconding with it to heaven.  Jung insist the she tell him what is this treasure and give him what belongs to me and beg for what you need from it.  The soul finally confesses.  It is love, warm human love, warm red blood.  The holy source of life, the unification of everything separated and longed for.  Jung protests.  You get drunk on the blood of men and let him starve.  Love belongs to me.  I want to love not you through me.  He insists she learn to honor mankind because you force us to labor for your salvation.  And now she must work for "the earthly fortune of humankind".  This means taking back into the human interior not just his own lowest, his inferior part but also his force that creates the gods.  Not just his shadow but also his now redeemed feeling, the treasure of warm human love.
^M02:00:07
And not just his personal matter but what his encounter show him about what matters, the fundamental elements of reality.  For example, Jung must embrace "the serpent of God that wants human blood".  For this serpent, life is part of the power that is different from the power of science.  The serpent is the earthly essence of men which is not conscious.  It is the mystery that flows to us from the nourishing earth mother from which everything that becomes emerges.  It both causes Jung to become enslaved to his ruling principle and hence is an adversary.  But also it gives him wisdom, hardness, a wise bridge that connects the right and the left and leads to concretization on earth.  The point here is not theory but making a difference in life in ethical action.  Jung does unite with the serpent.  He says, "I took my part of the humiliation and subjugation upon myself."  And he continues the devil, who is the sum of darkness of human nature now has no power over him.  For Satan is the quintessence of evil, pure negation without force.  Taking on the serpent, Jung fetters the devil and builds "a firm structure" that can withstand the fluctuations of the personal and therefore, the immortal in me is saved.  The dead come back to Jung because their unlived life drove them to find the animal part they had failed to live.  Jung says he takes over something of the dead into my day and death that can never be canceled out gives me durability and stability, when I recognize the demands of the dead in me and satisfied them.  I sacrificed personal striving in the world which then took me for dead.  But the serpent says to him, life is yet to begin, which Jung himself perceives in saying that everyday belongs to the image of the Godhead.  Echoing the words of Salome and Elijah that they are real, the everyday living serves the image we have of the ultimate, what we call God.  And for this task of living the divine in everyday, Jung has the help of the Cabiri who grow from the flowers of the corps of the slain dragon who devoured the sun of consciousness.  Jung calls them possessors of ridiculous wisdom, first formations of the unformed gold.  They have their origin in the lowest and he asks them, "Are you the earthly feet of the Godhead?"  They say, "We are the juices sucked out of inertia, affix to what is growing.  We carry up what is dead yet enters into the living.  We place stone on stone and now you stand on solid ground."  And they give him a sword to slay them.  For that will free Jung from his entanglement with his formations, his ruling principle, his scientific thinking.  So from this encounter we learn what Jung learned.  Destructiveness finds its ongoing place in life.  He writes, the creating of the new prepares the destruction of precisely this day in the hope of leading it over into a new creation.  As a result of these encounters, Jung experiences a change in his subjectivity.  He says, I'm smelted anew in the connection with the primordial beginning of my self and the world.  The formed in him dissolves, binds itself anew with the children of chaos, the powers of darkness, the ruling and seducing, the divine and the devilish.  He writes, by accepting the lowest in my self, I lower a seed into the ground of hell.  The seed is invisibly small but the tree of life grows from it and conjoins the below and the above.  Beginning down where nothingness widens itself into unrestricted freedom.  So in effect, the nowhere in us becomes the site of transcendence.  For God is not now to be found in the absolute, but in the terrible ambiguity "the hateful beautiful, the sick, healthy," the new god will be found in the relative, born as a child for my own soul and from the human soul, from the secret mystery of the individual.  The arrival of the new comes not then as a descent of spirit from above but from the below of matter which for the psyche is the unconscious that includes our personal narrative but also the human narrative, the objective elements that must conjoin.  We must do the work.  Jung says, "When God enters my life, I bear the burden of poverty and everything reprehensible in me.  With this, I prepare the way for God's coming."  This is not hubris, this is service.  And a bold way Jung describes his service is this.  The depths will force you into the mysteries of Christ.  One is not redeemed through the hero but becoming a Christ himself.  We undergo the mysteries of conjoining the opposites and suffer what this conjunction brings.  For Jung, it was conjoining thinking with feeling, science with magic, intellect with paradox, devil with God and his way makes us ask, well what is our way.  And Jung writes, you make your self into the vessel of creation in which the opposites reconcile and thus you also serve others.  If we are ourselves, he writes, we fulfill the need of the self and through this become aware of the needs of the communal and can fulfill them, then the life of God begins.  May each one seek his own way, the way leads to mutual love and community.  The change in his subjectivity accompanies the change in God images.  The child Christ and Abraxas all turn up in Philemon's garden.  Philemon tells Jung, the dead rejected the God of Love and the community of love.  So I am teaching the God who blasts everything human, who powerfully creates and mightily destroys.  And Philemon advices Jung to enter ever deeper into God and Jung encounters the Lord of the Frogs, "of bodily juices, the spirit of sperm and entrails, of the genitals, of the joints, of the nerves and the brain, the spirit of sputum and excretions."  Abraxas, the name given to this God behind the Godhead is "the creative drive form and formation, sheer effectiveness that unites the fullness and vital force, God, with the sucking gorge of emptiness, the devil."  Abraxas who produces truth and lying, good and evil, life and death, in the same word and in the same act is terrible.
^M02:10:02
Out of the pleroma which is fullness and nothing, the beginning and end of creation, "our nature, our very nature is differentiation.  If we are true to our essence, we differentiate."  The primordial creator of the world, the blind creative libido becomes transformed in men through individuation and out of this process arises a divine child, a reborn God.  No more dispersed but one and individual in all individuals the same everywhere.  A thread winds back to Christ that we should be ourselves as truly as Christ was.  Philemon says to Christ, what one individual can do for men you have done.  The time has come when each of us must do his own work of redemption.  And Jung responds, I decided to do what was required of me.  I accepted all the joy and every torment of my nature and remained true to my love, to suffer what comes to everyone in their own way.  So behind the work of individuation lurks the terrific power of Abraxas, the sheer force of being.  And as man becomes differentiated, at a great distance, writes Jung, in the zenith stands a star.  This is the one God of this one man, this is his world, his pleroma, his divinity, the God and goal of man.  To this one God, man shall pray.  Prayer throws a bridge across death.  And Jung responds to his encounters by saying our task is to live one self, to fulfill what comes to you, for our life is the truths we seek, we create the truth by living it.  Speaking to the spirit of the depths, Jung exclaims, let me persist in divine astonishment so that I am ready to behold your wonders.  This knowledge of the heart is in no book but grows out of you like the green seed from the dark earth.  And you attain this knowledge only by living your own life to the full and only if you also live what you never have lived.  Jung's devotion to what he encountered made him recognize, "That I am as I am in this visible world and only the expression and symbol of the soul.  I am thoroughly a servant of a child."  And Philemon tells Jung, "You will be a river that pours forth over the lands and streams toward the depths.  You will hold the invisible realm in trembling hands.  It lowers its root into grey darknesses and mysteries of the earth and sends up branches covered in leaves into the golden air.  It will stay green for a long time."  Thank you.
^M02:14:05
[ Applause ]
^M02:14:32
>> Thank you very much, Ann.  Ann is our last formal speaker and I'm going to now--we are going to go until 12:10 because we've started late.  And I'm first going to ask the speakers if they would like to address any questions to each other and then invite the audience also to ask questions.  And I'm going to take the prerogative of making the first two quick remarks.  One thing that astonishes me is the incredible breadth of Jung's lived life.  That while he was working on the Red Book in writing his 60 volumes worth of material, he was keeping a full practice traveling around the world, present to the raising of his 5 children and loving food and wine and art and the wind and the waters of Zurich.  And so, the whole celebration of the lived life was also happening simultaneously here.  And last night, one of Jung's--the youngest of Jung's grandsons, Hans [phonetic] Hoerni said that what he most remembered as a 10-year old of his grandfather was the totality of his laughter.  And I just wanted to share that with you because I thought that was such a beautiful phrase that somehow he managed to go through all these and live the full life with the totality of laughter.  And the other thought that came to me as I was listening is the definition Jung gave of God when was asked as an older man how he would define God and he said, God is that which crosses my willful path, which is I think one of the great statements of always being open to the unexpected and the surprise in life.  And so now, I'd like to ask the speakers if they would like to address anything to each other.
>> I have one little.
>> Yes.
>> There's a sentence, I discard--page 307 in the Red Book.  I discard everything that was laden with meaning.  Then Jaffe writes a book called Jung's The Myth of Meaning.  Can you distinguish what Jung means, what Jaffe means?  I mean that evidently there are two senses of meaning here or--it's [inaudible]--'cause I love this thing, I discard everything that was laden with meaning.  I think they're splendid but I take it in my own way.
>> It's an important juncture.  I think there's a critical issue of chorology there.  What he describes there is entering a state of framelessness, a state of framelessness.
>> Framelessness.
>> Setting aside [inaudible] meanings to be able to confront his own experience.  In doing that, meanings are recomposed and one finds that in the second layer of the text, [inaudible] develops.  So in that sense, I see that the first statement as a moment or [inaudible] gave in sense on the way to an ultimate recovery of meaning.
>> Uh-huh.
[ Inaudible Remark ]
[ Laughter ]
>> To the eventual recovery of meaning.
>> Yup.
>> Which then [inaudible] would have to be discarded again, wouldn't it?
[ Laughter ]
>> And then the whole shebang starts again and again.
[ Laughter ]
>> I would say, Jim, that it's some--it's meaning and meaninglessness that he's after so that perhaps the word emphasize should be missed rather than meaning, that you create meanings and you know that the bottom sways underneath them and none of them are ultimate and they will be dissolved and if you can't take that as an inner task to live with that, it might happen to you from the outside as I think you've said where events happen that just are terrible.  They just rip up everything you thought you knew.  Death is like that often and--but we need, we--as you were saying, we have images of meaning.  The psyche speaks in images that strike us and we want them and yet the bottom sways.
>> Okay.  I'll let that ride, yes.
[ Laughter ]
That's--
>> It comes as thoughts.
>> They ask us somehow if one can live the meaningless life, that's what I'm thinking of.
[ Laughter ]
[ Applause ]
>> That would be a formation that would--dissolved.
^M02:20:08
[ Laughter ]
[ Applause ]
^M02:20:13
>> I think one has no option, that's--
[ Laughter ]
>> That's insane.
>> That's where we find ourselves.
>> Yes, yeah.  Except we lived by the powers, so it would be--the sense, the sense of life can still be feeling without having the meaning.
>> Or the ultimate meaning eludes one, if there is one.
>> Yeah, if--yeah.  Exactly.
>> Or I think the emphasis shifts from having the meaning or not having the meaning to be in sort of a constant thrumming conversation with the powers.
[ Inaudible Remark ]
It's like a dance or a fox appearing and splat [phonetic], I go on the ground.
^M02:21:09
[ Laughter ]
[ Applause ]
[ Noise ]
^M02:21:24
So perhaps the point there is that to have this--
^M02:21:29
[ Laughter ]
[ Inaudible Remarks ] 
^M02:21:34
You got to have a point.  Perhaps the point then in that definition of God is that which crosses my willful path is that the fantasy of carving one's path is a willful fantasy in that sense.  You would carry the image of it.  That's what's happening.  Or as another phrase here which I didn't include 'cause of the time but he says, I know these experiences are of God because of their unshakableness.  So, there's a kind of umm to it.
>> It also strikes me that Salome is the first figure, here is the first female figure and she's a beheader.
>> Oh yeah.
[ Laughter ]
>> Details, details.
[ Laughter ]
And so what he's actually--
>> Discriminate behavior.  She accuses whom she wishes to behead.
[ Laughter ]
>> Yes.  But to talk to her means you open yourself up to the experience of beheading that everything you thought and structured your life around is challenged, yeah.
>> But she doesn't behead him.  He heals--
>> He thinks he will be.  He seduces her.
>> Well she seduces not.
>> Well--
^M02:22:54
[ Laughter ]
^M02:22:59
>> You never know who seduces her.
[ Laughter ]
>> Exactly.
>> Exactly.
>> Exactly.
[ Laughter ]
>> There is though a dream he says when--follow that quotation I gave that she coils around him like the serpent, then the next line is whenever I think of you, I never forget this dream I had.  I was--this is you and I was lying on iron spikes and a bronze wheel rolled over me and crushed me.  This is what he associates to the seduction of Salome.
[ Inaudible Remark ] 
[ Laughter ]
>> He knew what he was talking about.
[ Laughter ]
>> There is no evidence by it graphically that Jung was into [inaudible] anyway.
[ Laughter ]
Of course you mean that.
[ Laughter ]
>> In this sentence that God is what crosses my willful path, does not necessarily imply that God is good and that you turn your cheek to everything that crosses your willful path.  It really would be more Jacobean, that is you struggle--
>> Exactly.
>> with whatever crosses your willful path.
>> Which is [inaudible]--
>> But is that the heroic mistake or do you turn the other cheek and love whatever crosses your willful path or what?
[ Laughter ]
>> Conversation with all of the above.
>> What's that?
>> Conversation with all of the above.  Who is it--who is it crossing and--
>> Well, it seems in the attitude that Jung has that he has talked about in Memories, Dreams, Reflections, he has these big dreams and then he says, oh no, that means I have to work on all these material.
>> Yeah.
>> It's always dismay, you know, that he's had this huge archetypal dreams in a way, this will give me a task.  So, to me that is engaging and--
>> Engaging.
[ Inaudible Remark ] 
>> Well also, it's not about--it turns to the question meaning, it's a about a question of discrimination and differentiation of the voices.
>> Yeah.
>> Of discriminating who is there and what is there and noting it, being alive to its--to what confronts one.  I mean there's no answer.  It doesn't propose an answer there, but a kind of fidelity of recording what comes his way.
>> So any burning questions?  It's hard to see this.  Knowing there are no answers.
[ Laughter ]
>> There's one up in the back.
>> Yes, yes.  In the back there.
[ Inaudible Remark ] 
>> [Inaudible] a mic.  Could these meanings, these symbols that come, could they be relative truths that only exist in the moment and are meant to be grasped in the moment but not clung to?
>> I didn't hear it.
^M02:26:32
[ Pause ]
^M02:26:37
>> The--there is an explication in the text of temporality that the highest truths is [inaudible] you put to devalue themselves and that require regeneration.  There's that--a chapter entitled the Ruin of Former Temples, which talks about his former ideals and how these things necessarily degenerate.  So he's faced with a collapse of everything that he held dear to his highest truths.  So that is part of the predicament is to allegedly allow his truths what is--to witness his truths turned into falsehoods and that lands him into this hell.  He is to find his way to accept the--accept the becoming of temporality and that is--'cause that was explicating the figure of Abraxas.  That is an acceptance of change, destruction, coming into being and destruction at the same time and an affirmation that nothing is fixed.
>> And the catch is you do need something to live by.  We are finite--those that repetition of the image of a solid bridge into everyday life.  The divine wants to live in the everyday life.  So that the catch is how to live with something that you're depending on, that is guiding you and simultaneously know it is not ultimate in that sense, it is relative.  But you're living as if it's ultimate and yet it's relative.  It's that kind of I'm there and there's a gap as well.
>> So, we have another program this afternoon.  There'll be a chance for more questions and I wanted to thank the speakers this morning and I also want to again thank James Hudson who now is in the room.
[ Laughter ]
^M02:28:58
[ Applause ]
^M02:29:06
>> This has been a presentation of the Library of Congress.  Visit us at loc.gov.